Suppose that....

[quade 4]

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Paul, one that you might want to think about is the use of a base rig from an aircraft.

Well, again it's a matter of circumstance.

If the S&TA is sitting in the front of a Twin Otter and somebody sneaks on with a BASE rig, then it's going to be pretty difficult to pin any responsibility on him.

If the S&TA is actively involved in a stunt from a C-182 and someone decides to use a BASE rig instead of a skydiving rig, then clearly he should/would have -known- what was going on. Understand, this isn't just a USPA BSR violation, but an FAA violation as well. The S&TA would presumably know that from the outset.

Jan posed the question as something that might not be obvious so that is what I keep going back to, but if it was a premeditated and intentional act by a small group of people, one of whom was a USPA official, then I think the USPA -should- hold that person at least partially responsible -- possibly take away whatever official status this person had.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[GravityGirl 0]

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Suppose that you saw a jumper violating xyz BSR and you knew it before they jumped, but you did nothing to correct the situation.

They go in on the next jump. The fatality had nothing to do with the BSR violated.

Should you be punished or reprimanded for the jumper violating a BSR and not doing anything about it?

Hard to say, because I have a big mouth and everyone on the drop zone calls me "Mom" 'cause I act like one. It would be a cold day in hell that I didn't mention something that I NOTICED.

But lets just say I had better things to do, like concentrate on my own skydive, etc. If the person was not my student and under my direct supervision, I don't think I should be reprimanded for not saying anything.

HOWEVER! As an instructor and a prominent person at my home here, I would reprimand myself and have some serious internal struggles for the forthcoming days. Because as a PERSON if I see something unsafe and say nothing and the results are catastrophic.... well.... that is hard to live with. Nobody needs to tell me that I coulda shoula woulda, I can take care of that myself.

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Suppose you did not notice a BSR violation. After a successful jump, someone points out the BSR violation to you. Should you be held accountable after all you as a USPA Instructor should have noticed this beforehand?

Being a USPA instructor does not make you a "know all", "see all". If it was my student on that load that was in violation of a BSR, then I am responsible. If it was a random jumper on the plane, then I am not.

If an USPA Instructor had to watch and catch everything on every load, they would become an unsafe jumper themselves. At some point you have to take care of yourself. Make sure your gear is in order. Concentrate on your skydive. And yes! Even relax on the ride to altitude.

What is your impression of a USPA Instructors responsabilities?

.

[VectorBoy 0]

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If you hold a USPA rating and your student does something in violation of the BSR's, or you miss something on his rig, or you take him through clouds etc you are responsible.

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What if they get on and split a six pack then and there followed by five shooters a piece

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[MakeItHappen 15]

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What if they get on and split a six pack then and there followed by five shooters a piece

I have a good story along those lines too...

.

This thread has been hijacked into a number of other interesting areas.

The question is about accountability. IOW, should the person that allows a BSR violation to occur be penalized at any time in the future?

The reply about someone crashing under a main with an out-of-date reserve comes closest to the scenario.

I have a contrived example that hopefully will generate replies that address accountability versus the position someone holds at a DZ. This example is not as general as the original question, but it might help you understand the original question.

Suppose Joe opens the door on jumprun (Twin Otter, Skyvan, King Air, Caravan etc). Joe looks down and sees that it is a solid overcast. Joe's group decides not to jump. The group behind Joe wants to jump. They get in the door and go. Joe knows they are violating an FAR, but does nothing to stop them from jumping.

Do you think Joe should be held accountable for their jump through the clouds?

Does your answer depend if Joe is 'just a licensed jumper', a Coach, an Instructor (any discipline), an S&TA, the DZO or a BOD member?

Yes, I know the FARs say the pilot in command is responsible too.
The question is about Joe's accountability.

If you want to think more, if one of the jumpers died from a low turn (on the airport - the spot was good), should Joe be held accountable for the BSR violation?

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[TomAiello 26]

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If you want to think more, if one of the jumpers died from a low turn (on the airport - the spot was good), should Joe be held accountable for the BSR violation?

Heck no. What was he going to do? Physically restrain them? And start a brawl in the back of the plane?

edit to add: my answer is the same if Joe is just Joe, or if Joe is D-XXX, or if Joe holds various certifications, or if Joe is the head honcho of all creation. My answer only changes if Joe is the owner/operator of the aircraft or DZ. Then I think he ought to say "hey, no jumping, clouds." If they still jump, despite this, that's on their own heads.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[slug 1]

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What if they get on and split a six pack then and there followed by five shooters a piece

I have a good story along those lines too...

.

This thread has been hijacked into a number of other interesting areas.

The question is about accountability. IOW, should the person that allows a BSR violation to occur be penalized at any time in the future?

The reply about someone crashing under a main with an out-of-date reserve comes closest to the scenario.

I have a contrived example that hopefully will generate replies that address accountability versus the position someone holds at a DZ. This example is not as general as the original question, but it might help you understand the original question.

Suppose Joe opens the door on jumprun (Twin Otter, Skyvan, King Air, Caravan etc). Joe looks down and sees that it is a solid overcast. Joe's group decides not to jump. The group behind Joe wants to jump. They get in the door and go. Joe knows they are violating an FAR, but does nothing to stop them from jumping.

Do you think Joe should be held accountable for their jump through the clouds?

Does your answer depend if Joe is 'just a licensed jumper', a Coach, an Instructor (any discipline), an S&TA, the DZO or a BOD member?

Yes, I know the FARs say the pilot in command is responsible too.
The question is about Joe's accountability.

If you want to think more, if one of the jumpers died from a low turn (on the airport - the spot was good), should Joe be held accountable for the BSR violation?

.

IMO you got to look at the org chart at a DZ. As far as punching holes thru a solid overcast before exit There are two people on the aircraft that can say no for everyone, the PIC and the DZO if the ST&A is backed up by the DZO than he should also be able to make the call Since your talking about a larger airplane someone on the plane someone is responsiable for determining proper exit order etc.

Since the spot was good in spite of a solid overcast It sounds like the DZ would "sometimes use a GPS for verifying the initial spot". Joe didn't open up the door based on his own instinct's. Someone turned on the green light, yelled door whatever based on the GPS. Joe opened the door and looked and said no way.

If joe had the stroke all he had to do was shut the door tell the pilot to descend and everyone to sit down and hook up. Almost the same situation as a go around, usually group 2 wouldn't say we don't need a go around get out of the way we be gone. It don't happen that fast.

If joe has the stroke and group 2 knows it their not going to leave because the DZO just says your out of here!

USPA hasn't removed a GMDZ's membership since?
The USPA person has no authority before the exit and very little if any after the fact. The DZO runs the show and sets the procedures at their DZ.

I know of one DZ that has a Mcnasty with a hotline to the FAA everytime someone punch's thru a cloud, Mcnasty has more stroke than USPA does, and the DZO listens to the FAA.

A serious injury by a jumper attempting a high performance landing after punching a hole thru a cloud with a good spot? IMO has nothing to do with the cloud situation. Same with the out of date reserve.

R.I.P.