BigM 2 #1 March 1, 2004 You are filming an AFF student's (let's say level 4 or higher) jump. The student starts into a hard uncontrollable spin. The AFFI is having a hard time getting control of the student. (Maybe the AFFI is injured, you can't tell.) You are an AFFI yourself but are filming the jump this time. Things are looking really bad... they are burning up a lot of altitude. Do you fly in to help? What if you are not an AFFI, do you fly in to help? "When I die, I want to go like my grandmother, who died peacefully in her sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in her car." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #2 March 1, 2004 It depends on alot: 1. What is the altitude? A Lv. 4 student may pull at the correct alt, regardless of the spin. How close do you want to be to a spinning, deploying student? Will this help or harm them? 2. Relationship / experience with the AFFI. Is this your first jump with them, or 101st? Furthermore, have you discussed this with them before hand? Would they be expecting you to assist, or stay out of the way? No rating / 3. Can you really help? If you don't have a rating, have you been through the AFF cert course? Do you know the protocol or procedjure for this situation? I don't think there is an answer. I have seen this several times while filming, and each situation required a different action. There are just too many variables to give a concrete answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pullhigh 0 #3 March 1, 2004 I think this is one of those "until you're there" situations. I'm sire propr protocol and all the rules say stay away from the out of control student. They've already injured their JM, don't be next. 1 fatality is bad. 2 is worse. 3 is not making it any better. At some point in time, you have to trust the AAD will do it's job and save the student if they don't save themself. You trying to help the situation may make it worse. That being said, it'd be hard not to try and help... Ganja Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #4 March 1, 2004 Quote Do you fly in to help? What if you are not an AFFI, do you fly in to help? If you are not an AFF-I, stay away. If you are, the decision would probably be based on local policy and how ugly the situation was. If there was absolutely no chance for the instructor to get back (ie: floating flat spin), then perhaps it would be reasonable to offer an assist. Of course keep in mind the student could dump at any point, or could flip around and increase fall rate, thus bringing the AFF I back into the game. If a video flyer saved one of my students at 9,000 feet I'd be mighty pissed. If he did it at 4,000 feet I'd feel like a fool, and would then buy the camera flyer a beer...but only if he had the AFF rating. Tom Buchanan Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem) NOT a Camera Flyer S&TA Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and EasyTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #5 March 1, 2004 With out a rating I docked mainside on a student as the instructor sunk out horribly. It was uneventful but I was not a rookie at cameraflying or aggressive RW. I seen video of the late great Kevin Clements do the same thing. As an AFFI I would assist in a heartbeat if it looked like help was needed. I'm very willing to beg forgiveness later. It's about the students safety. I've filmed AFF instructors dealing with out of control stundents. There's a big difference when the instructor can deal with it and when he's lost control of the situation. If he's lost control of the situation, I'd say it's time to step in. A regular non AFF rated camera flyer could seriously jeapardize the situation however a talented flyer could save your ass. How's that for a not so cut and dry answer?My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigM 2 #6 March 2, 2004 I realize that this is definitely a "you'd have to be there" type situation, and that there are several factors to be considered. I would hate to have it happen, but as Ganja said, it would be hard to not try and help. "When I die, I want to go like my grandmother, who died peacefully in her sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in her car." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #7 March 2, 2004 I was that student....spinning out of control, no idea where I was because the jumpsuit was flapping over the alti, spinning too fast to see the JM or camera guy's alti... The video shows my jm coming in, and catching my leg. We still spun. He lost his grip, and I came close to clocking him several times. The vid guy is an AFFer, and someone who I had jumped with before. I have no idea if he would've come in, but I suspect he would've - the vid shows him moving towards me. Then I waved off, took a moment, waved again, and still spinning, dumped very high, something around 8ishK. No line twists - miracle that was (I think my jm had gotten his hand on my leg just before I pulled and tossed.). I may not be the most competent jumper, and I certainly am not answering for any AFF rated person, but my instruction was: 1. If you don't know where you are, pull. 2. If you are uncomfortable/scared with what's happening, pull. What are the students taught? That would be what I would consider. What they are taught is hopefully what they will do; although I suppose you never know. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #8 March 2, 2004 I think if it was life or death act now and ask for forgiveness later if you KNOW what your are doing. This applies to almost everything IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #9 March 2, 2004 On a Level IV? Uncontrollable spin at altitude with the "real" JM not dressed for success? Me with an AFF ticket? I would absolutely go over there and stop that spin and take responsibility for that student. I have seen people spin so hard they black out and blow all the blood vessels in their eyes. I have also spent many, many hours in the windtunnel on Fort Bragg stopping such spins (on mock students) as drill for actual instances. Quick reaction by qualified personnel has saved many a student and even experienced skydivers. I stopped a guy from uncontrolled back spinning on his 1000th skydive after he blew the exit. Unbelievable? You had to be there. Bill Von Novak has a good, similar story from last year as well. I cannot imagine an instance where I, a very-current and qualified AFFI would just sit there and shoot video as a Level IV spun his eyes up while his primary JM sunk out and just looked up. Edited to add: I would fly up and give assistance right down to 2000 feet. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygirl1 1 #10 March 3, 2004 All I can say about this subject is I thank my Aff instuctor that stopped me in a uncontrollable spin on one of my dives..........I could not stop a turn and all I remember is realizing I was in trouble.......I was only jumping with one JM..........I saw him one time before I lost all altitude awareness and started to black-out............the next thing I knew I felt this THUD........and he had me in some kind of hug it seemed like.........I came out of it and nodded at him to let him know I was alright........he was still holding onto my arms and moved to my right side and nodded at me to make sure I was still with him...he gave me the pull signal....I smiled and pulled........ I have heard some AFF Jm's at various dropzones say they would not risk their life for a student....that is what the ADD is for and such....... that JM that came in on me I will never forget him.....he was my flying angel....... skygirl1" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #11 March 3, 2004 I am not an AFFI might go for a try in that situation... But if I can't manage to help I hope his Cypres fires... I heard of a technique for that kind of case but I'm almost sure I dont have the skills to do it... You have to get under the student so he's in your depression... No lift should be equal to no turn... Don't want to be affirmative on that one...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pullhigh 0 #12 March 3, 2004 Cuck, You are on of the exceptions to the rule. Even though you are not THE AFF insturctor on that jump, you are still an AFF insturctor, and have the skills and knowledge to dock on a spinning student. Back away from yourself for a minute and think about the AVERAGE video guy at most smller DZ's. Please don;t encourage some 100 jump wonder with a camera on his head to be a hero. I think there are exceptions to very rule, but for the most part, a video guy has no business near a student unless he is qualified to handle the situation at hand. I look at it like this: If I were my wife or kid as the student, how would I want the video guy to react? It would very much depend on who the video guy was. Assuming it was one of a few people at my DZ, I would expect them to save my loved ones life. If it wa anyone other than a select few, I'd just assume them stay away rather than become something else to become out of control. I thnk the odds are better in trusting the equipment than trusting a fairly young in the sport video guy to dock and save them. Most likely he or she would just make things worse for the student and themself. Ganja Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #13 March 3, 2004 did it happen to you ??scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #14 March 3, 2004 Below 3,000' students are on their own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
