Rental Gear Protocols

[bmcd308 0]

The other thread about this has gotten a little polluted, so I wanted to move this discussion a little. Remember that we are not talking about BORROWED gear here, but RENTAL gear, where the jumper paid to jump it.

There is no rental agreement, you just walked up and paid $25 to jump the rig one time.

My questions are as follows:
1. If you use the reserve, should you have to pay to repack it?
2. If the main breaks a line on opening, should you have to pay to reattach or replace the line?
3. If the main blows up on opening, should you have to pay to replace it?
4. If you lose any handles, should you have to pay to replace them?
5. If you lose the cutaway main, should you have to replace it?


Please answer keeping in mind this is RENTAL gear, not an upjumper's gear you borrowed.

My answer to 1 and 2 is no, those are normal wear and tear and part of what you pay for when you rent gear.

I am undecided on 3.

4 and 5 are definitely yes.

I imagine the gear dealers are going to have a very different opinion.

My answer to the others is yes - you lost it. Replace it. I do not think, however, that if you lose a 1990 PD210 with 2000 jumps on it you should be expected to cough up the price of a brand new canopy.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[thelem 0]

1. No - normal usage
2. No - normal usage
3. No - Due to packing or age of canopy, possibly packer should pay, but it might have been a previous packer who caused a hard opening, weaking that canopy (just guessing for reasons why a conopy might explode).
4. Yes - you have been stupid. If you had a double mal which you fixed, then no.
5. Not if you are renting from the DZ. DZ control should also be keeping an eye on the main, so if it gets lost it is as much their fault as yours.

[Kris 0]

1. If I use it I'll pay to get it repacked. The rig was my responsibility when I checked it out.

2. Depends upon the condition of the main. If it is overdue for a reline then I am not paying for it. Otherwise, I am.

3. Depends on the situation, but more than likely 'yes', especially if I packed it.

4. Yes

5. Yes.

Whatever happened to, "Buy your ticket, take your chances."? People have no sense of personal responsibility anymore.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[skybytch 273]

1. Yes. Regardless of who packed the main. You'd pay for the repack on your own gear wouldn't you?

2. Possibly. Depends on the condition of the lines and the number of jumps on them. It is possible that your pack job (or the pack job you paid for) contributed to the line(s) breaking.

3. Possibly. Depends on the number of jumps and overall condition of the canopy. It is possible that your pack job (or the pack job you paid for) was the cause of the problem. At replacement cost less a reasonable amount based on the number of jumps on the canopy.

4. Yes. At replacement cost - ie if the dz or gear dealer gets a discount on the parts you shouldn't have pay full retail.

5. Yes. At replacement cost less a reasonable amount based on the number of jumps on the canopy.

[buzzfink 5]

1. If you use the reserve, should you have to pay to repack it? NO. YOU RENTED IT PACKED. IT WAS NOT YOUR PACK JOB OR FAULT.
2. If the main breaks a line on opening, should you have to pay to reattach or replace the line? NO.
3. If the main blows up on opening, should you have to pay to replace it? NO.
4. If you lose any handles, should you have to pay to replace them? YES
5. If you lose the cutaway main, should you have to replace it? YES.

Someone posted that the DZ should keep an eye on it and go recover it. That is all well and good and many times that will happen but it does not relieve the person renting from taking responsibility for the gear he rented. Ultimately, it is the renters job to ensure the main is recovered.


Buzz

[Nightingale 0]

sometimes a main blow-up can be the jumper's fault, though. were they overloading it? did they dump in a track? what else was happening?

[riggerrob 643]

This is like car insurance: the larger the premium, the smaller the deductable.
For example, if I were only paying $25 for gear rental, I would expect to pay for all repairs and replacements.
On the other hand, if I were paying $75 per rental, I would expect the store/rental agency to pay for all missing parts.
All this should be spelled out in the written rental agreement.
Oh and if you broke a line and the rest of them were "tired" the rental agency is being irresponsible with gear maintenance and the user should not have to pay.
Face it, gear rentals are often a form of advertisement for canopy manufacturers. What do they gain by renting out canopies with lines that are out of trim?
If I may use another automotive analogy, what is the point of allowing you to test drive a shiny new sports car if the tires are worn out?
Sooner or later you have to pay the piper.

[buzzfink 5]

Quote

sometimes a main blow-up can be the jumper's fault, though. were they overloading it? did they dump in a track? what else was happening?

But the problem is in determining what happened. When in doubt, the customer is always right. Besides, if he dumps in a track, he is already paying the price by hurting for certain.

As for wing loading, the DZ knows how it is loaded when they rent is to him. Back on the DZ.

Blue Skies!


Buzz

[Nightingale 0]

I wonder what would happen if some of the gear stores did what car rental places do... sell supplemental "insurance" for damages.

$10 more for insurance on your daily rental, if you cutaway you don't pay for repack.

might be an interesting experiment.

[drakeshelby 0]

1. No. That is part of the gear that you are PAYING to rent.

2. No. You are paying to use it. The money collected by the person renting it should use some of that to maintain it. It is that persons gear, they are responsible for the maintenece!

3.No. If the main blows up on opening then it is do to poor maintennce or care or just a really old canopy that needed to be replace. We all have been witness to hundres maybe even thousands of jumps and I can only remember 1 time when a canopy exploded on openeing. The reason was the canopy was really old and the fabric was wron out!!!

4.Yes. You rented gear that was complete and working properly(so you thought). It is your responsibility to bring back all the gear. When you rent a car you bring back all of it; you don't keep the spare and not expect to pay for it!!

5.Yes. Keeping in mind that most people are told to follow your main down on a cutaway. (see my number 4 answer, ti applies here also)



drakeshelby

drakeshelby

[bmcd308 0]

>>1. Yes. Regardless of who packed the main. You'd pay for the repack on your own gear wouldn't you?<<

OK, this is directed both to Lisa and Kris (and others who answer question #1 like they do) -

If we assume $45 for a reserve packjob, would your answer change if the reserve was due the day after the reserve ride?

A $45 reserve pack job with a 120 day life depreciates at $0.38 per day. The supplier of the rental gear received a portion of the benefit of the pack job before the renter pulled the handle. Should the renter pay for the full pack job, effectively extending the amount of time that will pass before a new pack job has to be done?

Note that all my answers are a statement of how I would anticipate things working. I have never had a reserve ride on rental gear. These are all just philosophical questions.

Brent

EDITED TO ADD: Now that I think about it, I broke an inboard B line on a rental rig doing a low hop & pop. I landed the canopy, took it to its owner (who is a rigger) and pointed out the broken line. He replaced it, and there was never even any conversation about whether I should pay for his time or materials. I did not. He is a friend, though, and I am also a rigging customer of his. So maybe he blew it off because of our other relationships.

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www.jumpelvis.com

[skybytch 273]

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If we assume $45 for a reserve packjob, would your answer change if the reserve was due the day after the reserve ride?

No. If I have a reserve ride on my own rig one day before the repack is due, should the rigger charge me less for the repack? If I use a reserve - any reserve, on any rig, for any reason - I should pay for the entire cost of repacking it regardless of when it was last packed.

[bmcd308 0]

>> If I have a reserve ride on my own rig one day before the repack is due, should the rigger charge me less for the repack? If I use a reserve - any reserve, on any rig, for any reason - I should pay for the entire cost of repacking it regardless of when it was last packed. <<

You missed my point.

If I have a reserve ride on my own rig one day before the repack is due and pay to have it repacked, I will not also have to pay to get it repacked the next day. I get a new 120 days.

That reserve ride did not really cost me $45, it only made me pay the $45 one day sooner.

>>If I use a reserve - any reserve, on any rig, for any reason - I should pay for the entire cost of repacking it regardless of when it was last packed. <<

You could not be more clear here.

At our dz, when the rental rigs are due, they put them on the low-time jumpers and have them drill EP's wearing the rental rigs and pulling the actual handles. It is kind of the first step in repacking them. Should those students pay for the repack, or is this an exception to the any reserve, any reason rule?

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[Romolus 0]

As a starter I think it is important to determine if the jumper is a student or a jumper with licence jumper! If it's a student i guess the the dropzone should take all responsibilities, except from the lost handles.

If it on the other hand is a jumper whit C licence or above they have more responsibility towards the rented gear. I what degree they have to pay depends on the DZ and the price. But the DZ should have some kind of policy!

[bmcd308 0]

>>But the DZ should have some kind of policy! <<

I agree. I think most disagreements could be avoided if it was simply made clear up front.

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www.jumpelvis.com

[skybytch 273]

Quote

At our dz, when the rental rigs are due, they put them on the low-time jumpers and have them drill EP's wearing the rental rigs and pulling the actual handles. It is kind of the first step in repacking them. Should those students pay for the repack, or is this an exception to the any reserve, any reason rule?

I should have been more clear. If I ride a reserve - any reserve, on any rig, for any reason - I should pay for the entire cost of repacking it regardless of when it was last packed.

I like the idea of having people do actual handle pulls at repack time - I used to encourage my rigging customers to do so when they dropped their gear off.

[usedtajump 1]

When you rent ski or snowboard equipment you're
responsible for loss or damage, period.

If your equipment is stolen while you're in drinking a beer, tough, you just bought it. If you break a ski doing moguls, you now own a broken ski. Take your boots off and they disappear, it's a long cold, expensive walk in your socks back to the rental agency.

When you rented the ski equipment, you completed a rental agreement and gave them your credit card as security and guess what, the charges for the lost or damaged gear go on your credit card per the agreement that you signed.

Given the lack of personal responsibility of some renters these days, shouldn't this be the case for skydiving gear rental too?

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

[USPA 0]

How do you then do a pull force test?

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[packerboy 3]

If a DZ packer packed the main, NO.
If you packed it, yes.
Broken parachute (depends on the condition of the parachute) Most likely not.
Lost pieces - yes.

If I were a DZO however, I don't think I would make people pay for handles if they lost them on a particularily nasty mal packed by a DZ packer. I would make the packer pay for it IN BEER!

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Thanatos340 1]

I agree that you should pay for the Repack in most cases, But as the Owner of the gear, It costs $45 every 120 Days (depending on where you are) to have the reserve repacked. That should be factored into the cost for renting out the rig.

In the example above, the repack is due and the reserve gets used. The owner is not out of any additional money. Why should the Jumper have to pay for the repack? The Owner has already factored the cost of this repack into the money that they have collected in rental fees. No Loss has been suffered by the Owner.

Seems like an unscrupulous Owner would hope that everyone has a Mal on their rigs when it is close to Repack Time so they can save a lot of money. And hey if the main gets lost in the process, they get to upgrade their canopy’s too. They should offer a $50 bonus to any packer that packs a mal on a rental rig that is close to its reserve repack. They stand to really increase profits that way.

The Replacement Value vs. Fair Market Value would not hold up in any court anywhere. If your car gets totaled, you get its value based on age, condition and mileage not a the cost of a brand new car.
If you lose a Canopy, You are responsible for the cost of that canopy (considering Age, condition and number of jumps) not $1,200 for a brand new canopy (Unless it was a Brand new Canopy that you just lost.)

I had a canopy get damaged on a rental rig on my 15th jump. After I deployed and started my control check, I noticed a Pilot chute and free bag floating away. I started looking below to see who had the cut away. Hmm, everyone under their mains. Look up and realize that it was my Main`s D-bag and Pilot Chute that was drifting off. After double checking everything completely, I see that there nothing else wrong with it and land it. Found out that the Stitching around the Attachment point on the main had failed. I did offer to pay the DZO for the damage but they said it was not my fault and that there nothing I could have done about it.
Are you saying that I should have paid for/was responsible for that damage?

[skybytch 273]

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No Loss has been suffered by the Owner.

Each jump that is put on a reserve reduces it's value. So I disagree, there has been some loss suffered by the owner of the reserve when it is used.

Quote

The Replacement Value vs. Fair Market Value would not hold up in any court anywhere.

Reread my original post on this thread. I believe I stated "replacement cost less a reasonable amount based on the number of jumps that are on the canopy." Replacement cost should be the actual cost to the dz/gear store, not what they would sell the same canopy to a customer for.

Please note that the opinions I am expressing on this thread are my opinions as a skydiver, not as a gear store owner. I'm saying what I would do (or at least offer to do) if I were to jump a rented (or borrowed) rig and had any of the mentioned situations occur to me.

I will say that I'm saddened by how few jumpers seem to be willing to take responsibility for the gear they jump, whether it belongs to them or not. And speaking as a gear store owner, I will also say that I am rethinking my plan to provide rental equipment to my customers based on what I've been reading here. I'm no longer sure it would be worth the time, effort and money that I'd have to put into that equipment.

[bch7773 0]

1. yes. but im not sure about the "if it was due the next day thing" maybe no in that situation.

2. No. thats the DZ's gear that was crappy and broke, its not your fault... unless you opened in a track or sit

3. No. same reasoning as #2

4. Yes. you are responsible for getting all the parts back to the renter

5. Yes. but only the cost of what it is worth NOW. none of the crap where you pay for a new canopy... you don't even pay for the new canopy price minus the DZ's discount. you lost something worth $300, that means you pay $300... not $1200 for a new canopy.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[bmcd308 0]

>> I'm no longer sure it would be worth the time, effort and money that I'd have to put into that equipment. <<

I'm not sure you should take that away from this discussion. I think the more important lesson from this discussion is that different skydivers have developed different ideas about what will happen if they cut away rental gear. If it is clear to the person renting the gear before the cutaway what will happen, then I am sure that overrides any existing notion of what should happen. It certainly would with me. I think the real problem is that folks just do not know what to expect, and that is the point I was trying to bring to light with this thread.

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[riggerrob 643]

Seems like an unscrupulous Owner would hope that everyone has a Mal on their rigs when it is close to Repack Time so they can save a lot of money. And hey if the main gets lost in the process, they get to upgrade their canopy’s too. They should offer a $50 bonus to any packer that packs a mal on a rental rig that is close to its reserve repack. They stand to really increase profits that way.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is April Fool's Day?
Right?