Nightingale 0 #1 April 5, 2004 This question comes from both a personal experience last weekend, and all the questions going on about who should pay for a reserve repack. Last weekend, I jumped rental gear, because my gear was at the DZ rigger for a repack and container wash, and the container took longer than expected to dry. The gear store was kind enough to give me a free rental for the day, and so I got to demo a sabre2. I pulled a little higher. This was a new canopy and I wanted to play a bit before I had to land it. I pulled at 4.5 and was open by 3.8 or so. I collapsed the slider and unstowed the breaks. As soon as I unstowed the breaks, the canopy started making a quick turn to the right. I looked up and realized that the excess break line (there was nowhere to stow the extra line on these risers, it just hangs loose) had tied itself into a knot around the riser. I messed with it for a second and discovered it was not only a knot, it was a tight knot. had this been my canopy, I'd have chopped. However, it wasn't my canopy. I checked my altitude. Had it been my hard deck, I'd have chopped. I had 500 feet left to clear this before my hard deck, or I was chopping. I messed with the knot, all the while trying to keep enough tension on the other toggle to keep the parachute flying straight. My altimeter was right in front of my face and I was constantly looking at it. I cleared the knot with 100 feet to spare and landed the canopy. another 100 feet and I know damn well I'd have chopped. The issue wasn't IF I'd chop, but WHEN. I know I wouldn't have ridden a mal into the ground. I was very altitude aware and knew where I was in relation to other canopies and to the DZ. I'm not asking for opinions about my actions. I've already discussed that with my instructors, and they advised me that either course of action would have been fine, and that its ok to try to fix a mal as long as you're above your hard deck. as soon as you hit your hard deck, you need to chop, and I'd have done that. What I'm wondering is if anyone else has a story where they treated rental gear differently than their own, or if that doesn't enter their minds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #2 April 5, 2004 I for one, don't give a rats ass about rental gear compaired to my life. I am not just thinking about me, but my kids and boyfriend and my family. I wouldn't even think about it ever, just do it. Same with my own gear. I am sure that the place that I rented from would understand more if I had and yet didn't have the money, but could work it off. I think they would rather have a missing main and freebag than bloody gear and cut up chest and leg straps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #3 April 5, 2004 Hmm, was in a car wreck once, no one was hurt but the cars were pretty much totaled. The chick driving the other car was in hysterics over the damage. I really couldn't have cared less even though the accident was her fault. No one was injured, the rest is just property, easily replaced. I doubt I'd think twice about chopping a rental or even a friend's main. It's just a thing, easily replaced. People aren't. Besides if you die under it you're likely to get it all bloody and what not. That'd be downright rude. The polite thing to do is cut it away from your malfunctioning butt so it clears the crater and avoids the mess. But maybe I'm just more considerate than you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #4 April 5, 2004 Did you do a practice rear-riser flare to see if that was a landing option? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #5 April 5, 2004 No piece of equipment, whether it belongs to you or not, is worth your life. Period. If you cannot unfuck yourself by the time you hit your hard-deck then Mr. Canopy (or Mr. Pilot Chute, or Ms. Hacky) is no longer your friend. You should not spend any more time with a mal just because it isn't your gear.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #6 April 5, 2004 I voted, nope, lose it pronto. However, in this case if it was my equipment, I'd have done the same thing you did. You thought you could clear it and you did....nuff said. BTW, I have a Jav that has the same sort of risers, i.e., no place to store excess line. In that case I recommend you "make" a place to store it. There's a good article on how to make stows for these risers, but I can't seem to find it. Bottom line, I cut a locking stow in half, lengthwise (so it's half as wide, but otherwise still intact). Then threaded that through the attachment point of the toggle keeper and secured with a larkshead knot, i.e., the same way you attach a new stow to your dbag. Voila, keepers for excess brake line. That may have prevented the problem in the first place. Blues, NathanBlues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #7 April 5, 2004 If you can't safely land it - bye bye main, hello reserve. The way it was put to me when I first started - when you are considering the cost of the chop, you have to remember to put a price on your next breath. How much is that worth? Now how much is the repack? JumpScars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #8 April 5, 2004 rear risering it wasn't an option because I had one toggle stuck at halfway, and one toggle loose. If I'd let go of the left toggle to rear riser it, the canopy would've gone into a right spin. I'd have either had to land it at half brakes, no flare, or chop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #9 April 5, 2004 1) Money is no object....when it comes to do or die. You know this.2) I would land something that i can fly straight if i can easily manipulate it to do do that. But that's your call.3) Saber 2 .... may be a bit early for that but I'm old school. A lesson on why it's good to only have one new thing at a time.4) Good job Kris. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrhoop 0 #10 April 5, 2004 I would chop, and follow at least the main to the ground. I would do the same with my equipment, with no worries except my safety. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #11 April 5, 2004 It would still be possible to do a rear riser landing. Hold enough left brake to steer in a straight line, then either flare with one rear riser and one toggle (practice this a few times before landing) or just land in half brakes and PLF. The best option depends on your wingloading and confidence with rear riser landings. That said, if I couldn't clear it by my hard deck I would cut it away. No regard whatsoever as to who owned the gear. When I get on the plane, I am prepared to lose all of it, no second thoughts. On the plus side, you have first hand experience as to why you should never leave your brakes stowed below your hard deck. It would really suck to leave 'em stowed while trying to get back from a long spot, then go to clear them at 500 feet only to find one stuck. People have got hurt doing that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #12 April 5, 2004 I was assured by instructors that I would be fine on that canopy. I did ask. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #13 April 5, 2004 if I'd gotten to my hard deck, I'd have chopped. no question about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #14 April 5, 2004 I gathered that from your original post. I was trying to emphasize it is possible to safely land that malfunction in the event that you find yourself too low to cut it away. The best example of that is people who get in the (bad) habit of leaving their brakes stowed in order to increase glide while coming back from a long spot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #15 April 5, 2004 It it was my own and I had pulled high I'd mess with it as long as I could, the reserve is your last chance, as long as the mal isnt kicking my ass (spin) I'd fight it, as I got closer to my hard deck I'd start checking alt more often, and would probably cut away a bit above my harddeck if I couldn't clear it (to avoid the "I've almost got it I'll just give it a little more" thought at the harddeck I've never had to chop but I've talked to one or two people whos advice was basic Harddeck is not a time for evaluation it is the atlitude to have acted before you reach.. I'd like to think this would be the same with rental gear Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #16 April 5, 2004 If you can't afford to cut away your malfunctioning main over an area where you KNOW you will lose it, you can't afford to skydive. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #18 April 5, 2004 Quotehad this been my canopy, I'd have chopped. You rented it...It was yours till you hand it back. QuoteI messed with the knot, all the while trying to keep enough tension on the other toggle to keep the parachute flying straight. My altimeter was right in front of my face and I was constantly looking at it. I cleared the knot with 100 feet to spare and landed the canopy. another 100 feet and I know damn well I'd have chopped. While you showed great awareness, and did a great job. I would like to point out that several people have died trying to fix something. In a high stress environment time seems to warp. Seconds can seem like hours...And Minutes can seem like seconds. I know you were looking at your alti...But next time...cut the damn thing away. I would rather you chop something you MIGHT have been able to clear above your hard deck, than mess with it till you were below it, and find out you can't land it. Like I said, you did a GREAT job...I would not have fucked with it. Rental gear or not...I have but ONE answer about a canopy... Can I survive this landing?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #19 April 5, 2004 QuoteIt would still be possible to do a rear riser landing. Hold enough left brake to steer in a straight line, then either flare with one rear riser and one toggle (practice this a few times before landing) or just land in half brakes and PLF. ------------------- Unfortunately, I have experience with landing small canopies with stuck brake lines. The first time, I tried to land with the toggles very uneven keeping it flying straight, very ugly! The second time it happenned, I took a wrap on the steering line that was free to get the canopy flying straight and landed on rear risers with my hands even, a much better solution! Both times I was on canopies loaded 2.3-2.4/1. Unless you are certain that you can land safely on rear risers alone, it is better to cut it away and be able to land a reserve with toggles IMHO. ----------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites catfishhunter 2 #20 April 5, 2004 If you are thinking about the cost of chopping while jumping out of airplanes then you sure as ^@%^$@ shouldn't be jumping. Last thing that EVER should be on yor mind is how much this is going to cost if I cut it away. As Ron said you rented it it is YOURS until you had it back. If I ever start to think about trying to save money rather then saving my (_*_) during a malfunction that will be the day I give this up... MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Genn 0 #21 April 5, 2004 QuoteIf you are thinking about the cost of chopping while jumping out of airplanes then you sure as ^@%^$@ shouldn't be jumping. Last thing that EVER should be on yor mind is how much this is going to cost if I cut it away. As Ron said you rented it it is YOURS until you had it back. If I ever start to think about trying to save money rather then saving my (_*_) during a malfunction that will be the day I give this up... Quote I couldn't disagree with you more. She showed complete awareness, including her altitude....and most of all, she did not panic. I've been in a few high stress situations (doing CRW) where u can kill yourself as well as your friends if you panic. Job well done. IMO, you did fantastic. and to the others that put you down......trust yourself, you obviously have what it takes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites eeneR 3 #22 April 5, 2004 This is a no brainer...my life or a canopy???? im sorry but my life is worth a bit more then $1400 (give or take what the canopy is, how much used etc). I hit the hard deck and im not sure I can land it...its history....I will figure out how to pay for it. That brings up another point....if you cant pay for what you are borrowing....they you really should re-think borrowing it. She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites catfishhunter 2 #23 April 5, 2004 QuoteI couldn't disagree with you more. She showed complete awareness, including her altitude....and most of all, she did not panic. I've been in a few high stress situations (doing CRW) where u can kill yourself as well as your friends if you panic. Job well done. IMO, you did fantastic. and to the others that put you down......trust yourself, you obviously have what it takes! Tanto I think you have taken what I said completly wrong. I was not reffering to how she handled her situation but was reffering to her question and "You" refers to ANYONE that would be thinking"Damn if I chop this it is going to cost me allot of Money because I rented it". MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites drakeshelby 0 #24 April 5, 2004 I will keep this short; simple and to my point. If it aint broke don't fix it!!! If it is somewhat broke, try to straighten it!!! If it is completely broke - get rid of it!!! drake shelbydrakeshelby Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Genn 0 #25 April 5, 2004 QuoteI think you have taken what I said completly wrong. I was not reffering to how she handled her situation but was reffering to her question and "You" refers to ANYONE that would be thinking"Damn if I chop this it is going to cost me allot of Money because I rented it". hmmm....Rental or not..your canopy or a friends..whatever....ALTITUDE PERMITTING (which she had)...you wouldnt try to fix the situation if it was possible? I would on any canopy. If its an obvious chop...cya....but a knot (right there)with altitude permitting....I'd try until it's time to say CYA....or until I felt that it was a useless cause. Either way you will pay...rental, your friend's gear, demo, and your own...plus freebag and repack...The fact that she recognized the problem, had time to fix it, did her job....shows competence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
catfishhunter 2 #20 April 5, 2004 If you are thinking about the cost of chopping while jumping out of airplanes then you sure as ^@%^$@ shouldn't be jumping. Last thing that EVER should be on yor mind is how much this is going to cost if I cut it away. As Ron said you rented it it is YOURS until you had it back. If I ever start to think about trying to save money rather then saving my (_*_) during a malfunction that will be the day I give this up... MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #21 April 5, 2004 QuoteIf you are thinking about the cost of chopping while jumping out of airplanes then you sure as ^@%^$@ shouldn't be jumping. Last thing that EVER should be on yor mind is how much this is going to cost if I cut it away. As Ron said you rented it it is YOURS until you had it back. If I ever start to think about trying to save money rather then saving my (_*_) during a malfunction that will be the day I give this up... Quote I couldn't disagree with you more. She showed complete awareness, including her altitude....and most of all, she did not panic. I've been in a few high stress situations (doing CRW) where u can kill yourself as well as your friends if you panic. Job well done. IMO, you did fantastic. and to the others that put you down......trust yourself, you obviously have what it takes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites eeneR 3 #22 April 5, 2004 This is a no brainer...my life or a canopy???? im sorry but my life is worth a bit more then $1400 (give or take what the canopy is, how much used etc). I hit the hard deck and im not sure I can land it...its history....I will figure out how to pay for it. That brings up another point....if you cant pay for what you are borrowing....they you really should re-think borrowing it. She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites catfishhunter 2 #23 April 5, 2004 QuoteI couldn't disagree with you more. She showed complete awareness, including her altitude....and most of all, she did not panic. I've been in a few high stress situations (doing CRW) where u can kill yourself as well as your friends if you panic. Job well done. IMO, you did fantastic. and to the others that put you down......trust yourself, you obviously have what it takes! Tanto I think you have taken what I said completly wrong. I was not reffering to how she handled her situation but was reffering to her question and "You" refers to ANYONE that would be thinking"Damn if I chop this it is going to cost me allot of Money because I rented it". MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites drakeshelby 0 #24 April 5, 2004 I will keep this short; simple and to my point. If it aint broke don't fix it!!! If it is somewhat broke, try to straighten it!!! If it is completely broke - get rid of it!!! drake shelbydrakeshelby Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Genn 0 #25 April 5, 2004 QuoteI think you have taken what I said completly wrong. I was not reffering to how she handled her situation but was reffering to her question and "You" refers to ANYONE that would be thinking"Damn if I chop this it is going to cost me allot of Money because I rented it". hmmm....Rental or not..your canopy or a friends..whatever....ALTITUDE PERMITTING (which she had)...you wouldnt try to fix the situation if it was possible? I would on any canopy. If its an obvious chop...cya....but a knot (right there)with altitude permitting....I'd try until it's time to say CYA....or until I felt that it was a useless cause. Either way you will pay...rental, your friend's gear, demo, and your own...plus freebag and repack...The fact that she recognized the problem, had time to fix it, did her job....shows competence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
eeneR 3 #22 April 5, 2004 This is a no brainer...my life or a canopy???? im sorry but my life is worth a bit more then $1400 (give or take what the canopy is, how much used etc). I hit the hard deck and im not sure I can land it...its history....I will figure out how to pay for it. That brings up another point....if you cant pay for what you are borrowing....they you really should re-think borrowing it. She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #23 April 5, 2004 QuoteI couldn't disagree with you more. She showed complete awareness, including her altitude....and most of all, she did not panic. I've been in a few high stress situations (doing CRW) where u can kill yourself as well as your friends if you panic. Job well done. IMO, you did fantastic. and to the others that put you down......trust yourself, you obviously have what it takes! Tanto I think you have taken what I said completly wrong. I was not reffering to how she handled her situation but was reffering to her question and "You" refers to ANYONE that would be thinking"Damn if I chop this it is going to cost me allot of Money because I rented it". MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drakeshelby 0 #24 April 5, 2004 I will keep this short; simple and to my point. If it aint broke don't fix it!!! If it is somewhat broke, try to straighten it!!! If it is completely broke - get rid of it!!! drake shelbydrakeshelby Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #25 April 5, 2004 QuoteI think you have taken what I said completly wrong. I was not reffering to how she handled her situation but was reffering to her question and "You" refers to ANYONE that would be thinking"Damn if I chop this it is going to cost me allot of Money because I rented it". hmmm....Rental or not..your canopy or a friends..whatever....ALTITUDE PERMITTING (which she had)...you wouldnt try to fix the situation if it was possible? I would on any canopy. If its an obvious chop...cya....but a knot (right there)with altitude permitting....I'd try until it's time to say CYA....or until I felt that it was a useless cause. Either way you will pay...rental, your friend's gear, demo, and your own...plus freebag and repack...The fact that she recognized the problem, had time to fix it, did her job....shows competence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
