JamesNahikian 0 #1 April 13, 2004 Wingsuit flying is a unique form of human flight. Do you believe that additional USPA guidance would add value? D. James Nahikian CHICAGO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 April 13, 2004 What would this BSR cover? Its better to just write a note about it in the SIM. The current flyers are doing a pretty good jub with it the way that it is. You don't see a Skysurf BSR or a Camera BSR or a high proformance canopy BSR do you?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #3 April 13, 2004 The current SIM has adequate guidance on wingsuit flights. Any more would need to be scrutinized closely before being added."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesNahikian 0 #4 April 13, 2004 QuoteThe current SIM has adequate guidance on wingsuit flights. Any more would need to be scrutinized closely before being added. What are you suggesting, specifically? D. James Nahikian CHICAGO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #5 April 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe current SIM has adequate guidance on wingsuit flights. Any more would need to be scrutinized closely before being added. What are you suggesting, specifically? D. James Nahikian CHICAGO I'm not suggesting anything be added. I am saying that what is currently in the SIM is adequate and to expand on it anymore would need to be closely examined as i think it could become intrusive."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesNahikian 0 #6 April 13, 2004 Notes are notes. What exactly do you mean by 'intrusive'? As wingsuits proliferate, they impact skydiving operations in a particular way and a valid question remains whether traditional jumpers, whatever the hell that means, could benefit from specific BSRs similar to those under proposal for highly-loaded canopies. The poll definitely isn't aimed at jumpers with your experience, Lou D. James Nahikian CHICAGO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #7 April 13, 2004 If there's a wingsuit BSR, how about a FF BSR or a CReW BSR...how about a BSR that makes you jump a RW without booties on it until you have 500 jumps. Basically, its not needed,--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #8 April 13, 2004 I think the USPA already provides quite a bit of guidance specifically for wing suits in SIM Section 6-9. SIM Section 2 (aka the BSRs) are usually reserved for legal issues or safety issues that apply across the entire spectrum of skydiving.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesNahikian 0 #9 April 13, 2004 QuoteI think the USPA already provides quite a bit of guidance specifically for wing suits in SIM Section 6-9. Other than prequalifications and the recommended deployment altitudes, the SIM section is incredibly vague. D. James Nahikian CHICAGO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #10 April 13, 2004 What else do you want?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesNahikian 0 #11 April 13, 2004 Want is irrelevant, the poll is directed primarily to jumpers whose disciplines don't involve wingsuit flying directly. The SIM is vague regarding wingsuit flying procedures. Wingsuit basic safety recommendations could include, for example, detailed procedures for traffic clearance, reckoning, group flight, permitted time aloft and demonstrated skills, to name a few. Why or why not? D. James Nahikian CHICAGO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #12 April 13, 2004 Do you jump at wingsuit James? Or have you just had some problems with someone that does?www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesNahikian 0 #13 April 13, 2004 Of course I'm affected by wingsuit flyers! D. James Nahikian CHICAGO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #15 April 13, 2004 Quote Wingsuit basic safety recommendations could include, for example, detailed procedures for traffic clearance, reckoning, group flight, permitted time aloft and demonstrated skills, to name a few. Traffic should be a local issue as each drop zone birdman flight area would have different requirements. Reckoning? not really sure what you mean by this term. Group flight -- not really sure this is any different than any other tracking dive. (here's the one I liked the most) Permitted time aloft -- y'alls GOT to be kidding me! How is that even a factor? Demonstrated skills -- what skills? To begin wing suit flying? Those are already covered by the manufacturer's recommendations. I'm starting to get -really- curious what the point is that you're trying to make. Did you have a near mid-air with a wing suit flyer or what?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #16 April 13, 2004 QuoteOf course I'm affected by wingsuit flyers! Again...... Do you jump at wingsuit James? Or have you just had some problems with someone that does?www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesNahikian 0 #17 April 13, 2004 Wingsuit pilots put other jumpers at unique risk. What is your position, and why? D. James Nahikian CHICAGO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #18 April 13, 2004 Quote Wingsuit pilots put other jumpers at unique risk. It's your statement. YOU tell US why you think this.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #19 April 13, 2004 Yes If I'm approaching the DZ after a nice wingsuit flight and I don't see you there under canopy floating along, BOOM! Nope, unless you are on a tandem, a student under canopy at 5 k or A CReW formation you will never see a wingzoomer. Some DZs have separate CReW/ high pull areas vs Tracking/ winsuit operating areas and do a good job of keeping them separate. Some DZs like a nice wingsuit swoop of qualified and notified tandem master and passenger after a discussion of how many tandems and how many wingsuits will be on any given load. I have received requests for these on occasion. You are very much more likely to have someone on a regular skydive not give you enough exit delay on a regular dive, drift above you while you deploy, track along the line of flight into your group than have problems with a wingsuit jumper. Unless of course if I exit first and swing back under jump run. I could exit with you in grips for three seconds then let go fly away in my wingsuit and before I was on a downwind leg you would be off of the landing area packing. And wingsuiters are more likely to have problems with aircraft separtion. Both on exit and then during descent. So how again does a wingsuit jumper place you in extra danger? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #20 April 13, 2004 QuoteWingsuit pilots put other jumpers at unique risk. Others or just you? Are you flying your part of the sky correctly? I completely miss your point. Thanks! Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesNahikian 0 #21 April 13, 2004 QuoteSo how again does a wingsuit jumper place you in extra danger? A wingsuit flyer has more to deal with under canopy, especially under a canopy with the line twists that are not uncommon to novice wingsuit flyers. Canopy collision with a non-wingsuit flyer, "oops I needed to free my arms." Why not respond to the poll? D. James Nahikian CHICAGO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #22 April 13, 2004 >A wingsuit flyer has more to deal with under canopy, especially under > a canopy with the line twists that are not uncommon to novice > wingsuit flyers. Canopy collision with a non-wingsuit flyer, "oops I > needed to free my arms." Depends on the gear used. I have less to deal with when I am using my Silhouette 170/wingsuit combo than when I am doing big-ways and jumping my 119. But no, no new regulations are needed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #23 April 13, 2004 QuoteWingsuit flying is a unique form of human flight. Do you believe that additional USPA guidance would add value? You have asked two questions here. First, should USPA provide additional guidance, and second, should there be a BSR for wingsuits. I think USPA already provides a reasonable amount of overview guidance with regard to wingsuits. More wouldn't hurt as part of the SIM, but it isn't necessary and can be as easily provided by local drop zones, training centers, manufacturers, etc. A BSR seems to be unnecessary given the limited nature of wingsuit flight, the specific experience of the people flying wingsuits, and the overall safety record of wingsuits. Back in the day we actually had a BSR that prohibited "batwings," an early version of a wingsuit that used solid wings. There were problems with those contraptions and a BSR was written. As the popularity of batwings decreased the BSR was removed. Now, USPA has a better process of providing guidance through the SIM. I would like the BSR's to remain focused on the basics, and especially targeted toward minimum standards for student operations that involve a hold out to the general public. Tom Buchanan Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem) S&TA Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and EasyTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #24 April 13, 2004 QuoteWingsuit flying is a unique form of human flight. Do you believe that additional USPA guidance would add value? It is a fool's quest to attempt to legislate safety into existence. The USPA should follow in this instance (if they do anything at all), and codify the results of hard-won experience. The last time they had say regarding wing suits, they banned them. Not exactly a visionary approach. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #25 April 13, 2004 Since this is a poll, I say keep USPA out of things unless and until wingsuits start presenting safety issues (read that as deaths). I don't know of wingsuits presenting any serious safety issues so why would you want USPA involved? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
