What will it take?

[ianmdrennan 2]

Angela,

Quote

Just because you have never met one, doesn't mean they aren't out there. And, maybe you HAVE met one, but just didn't know it.

I think the problem is that often times, newer jumpers associate the ability to LAND a particular canopy with the skill to fly it. It's not the case. Yes landing is a big part of flying the canopy, but I believe that MOST people are capable of landing MUCH smaller canopies than they currently jump. What they ARE NOT capable of, is everything that goes along with it...increased speed of everything happening around you, split second decisions, etc, etc (you've heard it all before I'm sure).

I know I could land a 75 most of the time, doesn't mean I should be jumping it and therein lies the difference. Just because you can LAND it, doesn't mean you're ready for it (nor do I actually want anything smaller but that's a whole different discussion).

Quote

OPEN YOUR MINDS, PEOPLE! Everything is not black and white... there are gray areas.

For sure, otherwise we wouldn't be debating this. It's just definately not as gray as you think it is right now.

Quote

I'm not going to argue about this with you all, because we all know I catch hell on this board because I haven't followed the "standard" progression.

I think you catch hell more for your attitude than your progression....you often come across as abrasive as Ron does but with an inkling of the experience/knowledge (I'm not trying to insult you here). Try to relax a little (and this goes for Ron too, seeing as I'm naming names ) and I think people, while they may not agree with you, will respond better and, if you're lucky, take away something else to think about.

Quote

And, anyone who strays from the norm (ie, what you all feel is right) here is ostracized by your group.

Not true - by some maybe, but it's the minority. We don't have to agree with someone all the time. try and picture it from our shoes....we've come a long way the last few years (hell the last few months) on canopy awareness and progression. A lot of the experienced jumpers are not trying to "hold back a natural", we're just trying to prevent you making the same mistakes that we, and the lost friends over the years have made. It's very frustrating to know you could be doing something to HELP the other person become BETTER than us, but they won't take it "because they're different".

There's so much to learn...we're all learning, so take it easy and soak it all in.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[cocheese 0]

Hey kids. Don't have sex. Remember how good that worked ?
Don't drink til you're 21. Ha
What will it take ? Lets ask the newbies.
When are you newbies going to learn not to burn ? Well the stats say it's the people with 1000 jumps who are most likely to die.
Now what ?
I don't have the answer, but if you can't land your canopy in front of the pop machine without serious injury, then maybe you should keep the bigger canopy.
Hold off on the camera til you have 200 jumps with many different experiences in the air.
Wait for the Birdman suit til you are ready to handle a mal while wearing a straight jacket. (O.k. a loose straight jacket)
No headdown til you can flat fly and sit fly like the big dogs.
Remember there are two types of skydivers 1) those that have been hurt.
2) those that will get hurt.
If you haven't been hurt yet, respect the advice of those that have been hurt.
Take the progression slow or you'll be done real fast.
This is your brain on drugs. Any questions ? " yea... anyone hungry ? "

[WrongWay 0]

Quote

I'm sorry that you don't feel open-minded enough to accept that SOME people are able to fly on their heads at 100 jumps, and some people do have the ability to fly hp canopies because they seek the appropriate training.

You know, with all due respect, you seem to become very agitated whenever someone says anything that could go against the theory of you (or any other 100 jump wonder) being a child prodigy.

Here's a bet for you. If you win, you have 100 bucks in your pocket.

1. Worth 20 bucks - How many people have told you at 100 jumps you should not be jumping the canopy you're jumping and trying to swoop? If you can count them on one hand, you win.

2. Worth 20 bucks - How many people have told you that at 100 jumps you should not be flying on your head? If you can count them on one hand, you win.

3. Worth 20 bucks - How many dropzones would you call and give your canopy, wing loading, and jump numbers and ask them if they'd let you jump there would turn you away?? If you can count them on one hand, you win.

4. Worth 20 bucks - How many people have died at 100 jumps because they were hotheads who thought they could swoop and freefly? If you can count them on one hand, you win. (no disrespect to the passed, I just feel we should learn from them.)

5. Worth 20 bucks - How many people have given you canopy coaching for the sole reason that they didn't want to see you kill yourself, and have told you this? If you can count them on one hand, you win.

Let me know how it turns out, and prove it if you can please. Just letting you know, I'm not saying all this to be mean, I'm just very concerned for your safety, along with every other 100 jump wonder who thinks they're special. Take it from me, I was the same way. I was a major hothead at 100 jumps, just ask Phreezone, Wildblue, or Sunshine. I thought I could fly on my head, swoop like a monster, and I was different than everybody else. Well take it from me, I've been there, and I'm here to tell the next generation that you are not special, you are not a prodigy, and you should stop with the attitude you carry now, arguing with people with 1000s of jumps who have been in the sport for many years, seen hotheads come and go, and also have seen them die because of their arrogance and stupid mistakes that came from it. Any loss of life is a shame and a complete waste. For your own sake, for everyone else's sake, drop the attitude and the cockiness. Come back to earth and join the rest of us at Safety Day. Realize that yes, believe it or not, there are people out there that know more about the sport than you. () You need to respect these people and listen to what they have to say. I'm not saying it can save your life. I'm saying it WILL save your life, and probably someone else's who chooses to jump with you.

Be smart, be safe, be responsible, and be HUMBLE.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[weegegirl 2]

Quote

I think the worst people are those who went slowly and feel that everyone else had better do the same or else they will end up dead.

Or... do you think it's possible that they've just seen all too many hot-headed newbies hurt themselves carelessy in preventable accidents???

Sure, call me closed-minded or judgemental if you want. I'm not telling anyone what pace they should take. I'm telling people that it is okay to be responsible and to take it slow.

See, most newbies think that advanced skydivers see them as "cool" if they can "hang"... but in reality, most of them are ripping these people apart behind their backs for their stupidity.

If me sparking this conversation bothers you, I appologize. But I will not go back on how I feel. I think you may be getting defensive because a lot of people have commented to you on your jump progression. Remember, the reason people get on your case is that they don't want to see you get hurt.

Once again, the purpose of this discussion is to explore ways of preventing so many careless accidents, or at least slowing it down. That may never be a possiblity, but a lot of good points have been made. Thank you everyone for your contributions.

[jimmytavino 16]

....what will it take for people to slow down....???

simply the understanding and realization that
..skydiving can get better and better,,, the longer we allow it to be part of our lives...
We shouldn't be in such a hurry to get "there"...
that we miss out,, and blow past the "here"....
without completely absorbing all we can..It's not about some perceived 'destination'..
it's about the fun of the achieved 'journey'......
go easy... be safe... keep learning....

[skybytch 273]

Quote

A guy with 70 jumps at a neighboring DZ, no license, no logbook, asked me to pack his new Tempo 120 into a shiny new Mirage. He expects his (Chute Shop SA) elliptical Hurricane 120 to arrive next week. I just packed the reserve IAW manufacturer's instructions.
Fortunately another instructor and manifest recommended a coach and decided to call the other DZ Monday morning.
What I want to know is: what idiot sold a guy with 70 jumps a tiny Stiletto clone?

What's his exit weight? What is the manufacturer's maximum suspended weight for that reserve? Even if he's below the manufacturer's maximum suspended weight for that reserve, why didn't you refuse to pack it? By packing that reserve you just enabled him to get on an airplane with that "tiny Stiletto clone." I don't understand how you can place blame on the person who sold it to him when you're the one who turned a canopy and a container into an almost jumpable rig.

Maybe someday every gear dealer, rigger, instructor, DZO, S&TA, etc., will be willing to step up for safety by saying "Even though there are no official rules saying this but... Nuh uh. Not happening. Not with my name on it anyway." Until that day I don't see that progress will ever be made on this issue.

[sdgregory 0]

To the Bytch:

I, as a newbie, agree with what you said.


To everyone else.

There are many newbies out here who do listen. So keep preaching. Today I came home to a surprise. My new canopy was in. A Pilot 210. Now I can sell my Hornet 230 and fly a canopy that is all mine, never been anyone else's.

But I won't. Yep, I opened the box, looked at the pretty colors, rolled it back up, put it in the bag and will be delivering to Sherry Butcher (Regional Director, USPA and DZO at one of my home DZ's) this Friday. When she says, yep, you handle that 230 well, your canopy skills are good, you have enough experience that I feel you are ready to fly this new canopy, then AND ONLY THEN will I fly it. Till then, she has "custody" of my canopy to ensure I do not get over anxious and find someone who will put it in my rig immediately. And I know this, if I were to put it in my rig, she would not let me jump there. Not worth it, not worth whacking myself over and certainly not worth giving up longevity in this sport over.

I would be loading this 210 at just under 1.1:1 which was close to where I was with the Hornet 230 before I lost 12 pounds. But the Pilot is smaller and more aggressive. And it is not a damn Stilletto or Katana or whatever else I have no business having overhead.

Do I want to swoop? Boy do I ever.
Do I want to go Head Down? Without Question.
Do I want to do Crew? Damn skippy.
Do I want to fly camera? Tell me where to point.
Do I want to fly Bird-Man? You bet your bloomin' ass!

So when will I start? When someone I know has nothing but my safety at heart, who has the experience and knowledge, and who I know won't tell me what they think I want to hear, says it is okay to start.


I want to do the stuff the cool kids are doing too. And someday I will. But I am listening, and there are many more of us out there who are too. Keep on keeping us safe from our inexperience.

If no-one told me, I never would have known.


Blue Skies!

[cocheese 0]

Wow . I just fell over backward and passed out.
That was one of the coolest posts i've ever read. Kind of touching. Thanks for that.

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Quote

A guy with 70 jumps at a neighboring DZ, no license, no logbook, asked me to pack his new Tempo 120 into a shiny new Mirage. He expects his (Chute Shop SA) elliptical Hurricane 120 to arrive next week. I just packed the reserve IAW manufacturer's instructions.
Fortunately another instructor and manifest recommended a coach and decided to call the other DZ Monday morning.
What I want to know is: what idiot sold a guy with 70 jumps a tiny Stiletto clone?

What's his exit weight? What is the manufacturer's maximum suspended weight for that reserve? Even if he's below the manufacturer's maximum suspended weight for that reserve, why didn't you refuse to pack it? By packing that reserve you just enabled him to get on an airplane with that "tiny Stiletto clone." I don't understand how you can place blame on the person who sold it to him when you're the one who turned a canopy and a container into an almost jumpable rig.

Maybe someday every gear dealer, rigger, instructor, DZO, S&TA, etc., will be willing to step up for safety by saying "Even though there are no official rules saying this but... Nuh uh. Not happening. Not with my name on it anyway." Until that day I don't see that progress will ever be made on this issue.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

skybytch,

It is clear that manifest was not going to allow him to jump that rig for quite awhile.
There are at least a dozen CSPA policies that prevent him from jumping that rig for a long time.
Oh, and I did not hear how many jumps the guy had until after I repacked the reserve.
This used to happen all the time when I worked in the back of Square One. Back room riggers rarely know the size or colour of the owner, they just pack whatever the front office hands them.
By the same token, the same weekend, I made sure that a Micro Raven 120 disappeared from our DZ precisely because I knew that a licensed jumper with 800 jumps wanted to buy it. The licensed jumper is way too heavy to jump that Raven, no matter how many jumps he has.

[Kris 0]

Quote

Wow . I just fell over backward and passed out.

That was one of the coolest posts i've ever read. Kind of touching. Thanks for that.

No kidding. That's a nice example he's leading by whether he knows it or not.

I'll be the first to buy him a beer if I ever meet him in person.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[weegegirl 2]

Wow. You just made my morning.


Edited to Add: I never really made this clear before, but I totally consider myself a newbie too... and always will in a way. Every time I show up at my dz, I'm craving knowledge from the more experienced folks. When they talk... I listen. Whether it be about flying a canopy or flying your body, or anything else... I can't wait to hear them give their thoughts and explain different concepts to myself and others. And you bet your ass I have a strong group of people there with way more experience than myself that I would gladly listen to... and DO listen to.... when they tell me I need to slow down on something. I just wish more people would realize what a great benefit that is.

[Ron 10]

Quote

There are many newbies out here who do listen. So keep preaching. Today I came home to a surprise. My new canopy was in. A Pilot 210. Now I can sell my Hornet 230 and fly a canopy that is all mine, never been anyone else's.

But I won't. Yep, I opened the box, looked at the pretty colors, rolled it back up, put it in the bag ......Do I want to swoop? Boy do I ever.
Do I want to go Head Down? Without Question.
Do I want to do Crew? Damn skippy.
Do I want to fly camera? Tell me where to point.
Do I want to fly Bird-Man? You bet your bloomin' ass!

So when will I start? When someone I know has nothing but my safety at heart, who has the experience and knowledge, and who I know won't tell me what they think I want to hear, says it is okay to start.

I like this guy....I will get to know this guy since I think he will be around next year.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

What is stopping skydivers from following their own, personal learning curves? I would assume it would be people who assume that everyone's learning curves should be equivalent.

Gee, I'd go with most low timers think their learning curve is better than it really is. And those of us that have both been there, and seen lowtimers go into that stage, and some not make it out alive or in one piece.

The cool thing is the lowtimers think they are ready, yet they have to prove it to me. Just surviving a landing or two does not prove to me that you can fly that canopy. And attitude is everything.

Quote

Generally, people who do things quickly seem to warn others that what they have done may not have been the smartest thing to do.

So the people with the experience of doing it, and the experience of watching it...semm to think its best to go slow....Huh, thats kinda funny. The guy that has the experience wants others to go slow, and the one without wants to go fast? Wow, I think I will throw my voice in with the guy that has already done it.

Quote

Just because your (not directed at anyone in particular) progression went at x pace, does not mean that everyone elses should.

And just becasue you think you are ready to go faster, and want to...Does not mean you are ready or safe.

Quote

That's a sucky way to feel about it. I'm sorry that you don't feel open-minded enough to accept that SOME people are able to fly on their heads at 100 jumps, and some people do have the ability to fly hp canopies because they seek the appropriate training

And the thing that makes me sick is how most 100 jump wonders think they are able to do all these things, and when questioned get all pissy.

Quote

I am certainly not saying that every jumper is ready to fly on their heads and FLY a hp canopy at 100 jumps, but there will always be some who are able. And others who will never be.

Yep, but almost all that should not think they should be allowed...So should we just let anyone do whatever they want?

I say no. I say let them PROVE they can handle it then fine. But if they are not able to prove it...Then I don't want them on a HP canopy.

Quote

But essential skills courses should not be after-market add-ons... they are just as important as learning to throw your pilot chute and should be included in your student progression!!

Your "Essential skills courses" were not needed when not just anyone could go get a HP canopy. Before I got my first Stiletto, I had to talk to John Leblanc. Today a 100 jump wonder can walk into almmost anywhere and get one.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sdgregory 0]

So, let me get this straight. I got free beer coming to me instead of oweing it for a change?

[Ron 10]

Quote

So, let me get this straight. I got free beer coming to me instead of oweing it for a change?

Uh I never said I would buy you a beer...I said I would get to know you since I think you will be around next year.

I can get to know you while you buy the beer (Soda for me).

Geeze he gets a little excited don't he folks?

Tell you what...If you travel to Zhills..I'll buy you a beer. Otherwise its still on you

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[cocheese 0]

Yep. But i think this a happy ending to another thread that got a little warm.
Angela.... don't let this bother you. We love ya. You were just trying to make a few points and clear a few things up from your perspective.It's all good. I bet a lot of people learned something. Now can we get on a load and be safe ?

[sdgregory 0]

Well, you can't blame a guy for trying.

Okay I come to ZHILLS you buy I meet you anywhere else I buy.


And soda is just fine with me.

[davelepka 4]

***I would be loading this 210 at just under 1.1:1 which was close to where I was with the Hornet 230 before I lost 12 pounds. But the Pilot is smaller and more aggressive. And it is not a damn Stilletto or Katana or whatever else I have no business having overhead.

Do I want to swoop? Boy do I ever.
Do I want to go Head Down? Without Question.
Do I want to do Crew? Damn skippy.
Do I want to fly camera? Tell me where to point.
Do I want to fly Bird-Man? You bet your bloomin' ass!

So when will I start? When someone I know has nothing but my safety at heart, who has the experience and knowledge, and who I know won't tell me what they think I want to hear, says it is okay to start.
====================================

So I made an earlier post saying that the attitude of experienced jumpers can go a long way toward forming the attitude of newer jumpers. Some posts agreed with this idea, while others have said it won't work. So far, all have agreed that the post quoted above was on the money, and that this guy has the right idea. So where did it come from? It came from the people at his home DZ. How do I know for sure? It's also my home DZ.

I have clearly shown that I am in favor of a slow and regulated canopy progression. For that matter, I am in favor of a slow and regulated skydiving progression (although I think freeflying is OK without belly flying, but thats just me). Even with this attitude, the attitude of the maganement (Tim and Sherry Butcher) even strikes me a overly conservative from time to time. I would have put this guy on a 210 at 1.1 to 1 with no problem, but Sherry says 230, and 230 it is. I've seen this sort of thing over and over, and as much as I think it's going a little too far, the fact is, the program is working.

Last season, I cannot recall a single serious injury, and there may have been one amulance ride (I'm not sure, it may have been zero). We have graduated around 30 students from the A license program each year for at least the last three years, so our 'experienced' jumpers are a new, and un-experienced group. Still, we manage to make it through the season without injuries, and in truth, without many close calls. This is becasue these jumpers are taught from day one to take it slow, and that, in time, the skills and abilities will come. The interesting thing about it is, that those skills seem to come quicker to those who follow that program because they are open to instruction and advice, and approach things in an intelligent manner. How about a jumper on a graduation dive (jump #21) doing a 10 point 4 way. Sure it was three AFF instructors, but the newbie flew her slot, and earned every point. This sort of thing happens ALL THE TIME at our DZ. The program is sound, and it produces results.

Yes, I am showing freefall accomplishments, when canopy control and landings are a more important area to focus on. I don't really have anything to say becasue ALL of the jumpers are jumping canopies which are within thier abilities, and downsizing is closely monitored. In addition to the right equipment, we have a standing appointment with Scott Miller for AT LEAST one canopy course each season, and for the last few years it has been two. These are booked solid for three days, and we have jumpers from 20 to 500 jumps participating, and many jumpers will take the course multiple times.

Yes, the DZO, Sherry, happens to be a USPA regional director, and on the safety and training committe, but as we all know, the USPA has yet to officially implement any measures to modernize canopy training. Yet this hasn't stopped her from taking control of her 'world' and running it in a responsible way that reflects the needs of modern day skydiving. Furthermore, this is not a new attitude for her and Tim, this is the basis on which they built thier DZ, and the success of it is unquestionable.

I am all for small canopies, and swooping and evrything esle that makes skydiving as fun and diverse as it is, FOR THOSE WHO ARE READY. The definition of 'ready' is what needs to be examined (as in erring on the conservative side when a judgement call is needed), and the support of this conservative attitude needs to be apparent and vocalized by the 'cool' guys. It does work. It will work.

[WrongWay 0]

I respected you before, but you have just gained an infinite amount of respect and pride from me. It makes me feel very good that amongst the 100 jump wannabe "swoopers" and "headflyers", there are still low timers like yourself who still have a good head on their shoulders and know how to open their ears to voices of experience and survival. I really hope that some of the others on here will learn from your example. Bravo, my friend. Bravo.

Next time I see you, I owe you a beer.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[sdgregory 0]

Thanks bro. I look forward to it, and you gotta PM.

[WrongWay 0]

Quote

Angela.... don't let this bother you. We love ya. You were just trying to make a few points and clear a few things up from your perspective.It's all good.

She still owes me 100 bucks.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[sunnydee123 0]

Do you remember the day when you had about 30 jumps and someone asked you to join them on a jump and you found out they had 400 jumps? I USED to think, holy crap - they have a ton of jumps and must know lots.

I now have over 400 jumps, quickly approaching 500 and still don't know "lots". It amazes me actually at how much there still is to learn.

I had an instructor say to me after a load a few weeks ago, "I know you are an experienced skydiver now but how come you don't wear your helmet any more?" I normally hook it to my chest strap as I gear up so not to forget it but then when seeing others not putting it on the old noggen for take off, I stopped doing it also. It only took that one comment and that one "what if" to make me think about it....and start wearing it again. I didn't freak out about the comment, I appreciated the fact he cared enough to say something and let me make the choice.

I think it is great if someone has the BALLS to speak to someone (newbie or long timer) about ANYTHING skydiving related - to learn, to help or to just show concern. Sometimes we just need a little wake up call to kick our brains into gear.

Take it for what it is worth...everyone loving there skydiving family, and not wanting the sport to take a kick in the ass for something silly.

We can only do what we can do - so don't be afraid to take that one little step by "communicating"...it could make a difference, if not to the person you are directing the info to, to someone else listening in the background.

Dreams become reality, one choice at a time...

[Designer 0]

I've tried for several years to get skydivers to "Not" go beyond their limits.Most think there are "None".Recently,I have decided those who listen will survive,those who don't will not!Also,I'm approaching my fifties and think it's time to get a bigger parachute?Most Skydivers do not think this way.Have been there and done that,time to think more about personal safety than going fast.Way back when I(we) pushed alot of limits in our sport and got away with it.Was it good "Judgment"?No,the time for better judgment as at hand.Think!