peek 21 #1 January 13, 2004 Interesting parachute configuration, avoid this if you can. Does everyone know what they would do in this situation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #2 January 13, 2004 Gary, Is that you????? Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #3 January 13, 2004 cut away the main and fly the reserve in? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #4 January 13, 2004 I'd use an outside rear riser to steer them further apart then chop.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #5 January 13, 2004 QuoteI'd use an outside rear riser to steer them further apart then chop. If the main is in front of the reserve what would you do? Consider this: It appears to be flying stable.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #6 January 13, 2004 Find the bigger parachute and use that to steer to a clear landing path. Make no input below 1000'. Not flare, PLF. Always be ready to chop. I believe I am consistent with the recommendations of this. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #7 January 13, 2004 And the Skygods sayeth.. " Thou shalt not scare thine Cypres, for truly it shalt maketh thine life interesting" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #8 January 13, 2004 QuoteIf the main is in front of the reserve what would you do? Consider this: It appears to be flying stable. Well, we all know (or should know what the BSRs and "Breakaway" say to do). I "think" I would do nothing as long as its pointed towards a SOFA. If I HAD to make turns I might use/test using the risers of the rear (reserve) canopy to make gentle nudging turns on the main canopy. Be interested in your thoughts on using nudge turns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcrocker 0 #9 January 13, 2004 Quotecut away the main and fly the reserve in? If it is flying stable you don't cut something like this away. You don't know if the reserve deployed through the lines/risers of the main. If you cut the main away you may cause a main/reserve entanglement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #10 January 13, 2004 Is it just me, or does that image look like two people with their legs locked together (instead of a single person)?JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #11 January 13, 2004 Considerable mismatch in sizes of the main and reserve! I believe most of the research on 2-out situations on which recommendations are based has involved well matched sizes.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #12 January 13, 2004 A close look at the photo reveals that it is a two-man side-by-side. I have flown a few of them down to 100 feet before dropping grips and landing normally. If I was stupid enough to scare my Cypres and found myself alone under that canopy configuration, I would do very little. At most I would grab outboard rear risers and turn just enough to point towards a large open field. Not much to be gained by trying to flare a side-by-side as it is already descending slowly. If it is weird and descending slowly, don't mess with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #13 January 13, 2004 If its a bi-plane, let if fly, fly the larger canopy/slower canopy (9 times out of 10, the reserve) with the rear risers. If its a side-by-side, well, depending on the altitude, I'd be really tempted to pull it into a downplane then chop it. Why? Well we teach students to fly it, but they're usually on square canopies. Has anyone here ever done any CReW with ellipticals, or on an elliptical? Ever do a side by side with one? Know what happens? The canopy tries to fold forward into the canopy its docked onto. So, your reserve is square, your main is elliptical, it most like won't fly (without input) stable in a side by side configuration. If you don't believe me, go out this weekend and do some Hi-Pro CReW. One, its fun, two, you'll get to see what I'm talking about if you do a side-by-side.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #14 January 13, 2004 Turn it into a downplane.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #15 January 13, 2004 QuoteTurn it into a downplane.... Not if, from the ground, it looks like this picture does! If I'm at 300 ft with one of these and it's flying stable, I'm going to look at my "do nothing" landing point and see if it looks like a comfy place to do a PLF. If it's turning gently, well, I guess I'll be looking all around and seeing if the general area looks comfy for a PLF. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #16 January 13, 2004 QuoteIf I'm at 300 ft with one of these... Well, now you're taking the fun out of it. Yes, 300 feet is a bit low to get a downplane started... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lug 4 #17 January 13, 2004 Just showing me a picture of a side by side with out details makes it difficult to post a honest response. There might be a few options that can be done with any random side by side scenario, which might invite an essay response to our question. Fundamentally, though, I would try to stay calm, for I know panicking will only leave me broken. I would go through the numbers, what’s my altitude, then evaluate what I had over my head, all to answer the question, what options has the scenario given me?Memento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #18 January 13, 2004 QuoteDoes everyone know what they would do in this situation? I still have a mental image of the video from the "Two Canopys Out Study", done several years ago. I seem to recall that when chopping one canopy from a side-by-side, there is a very real possibility of the risers from the released canopy, snagging on the side of the remaining reserve canopy, or its lines. And that can cause collapse of the one good canopy you have remaining, destroying your chances of a safe landing. I'd do nothing, but keep them flying the same way without disturbing the configuration, and head towards an open area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #19 January 14, 2004 Bingo.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #20 January 14, 2004 If it is a 2 man side by side they've gone to some effort (I cant zoom in as Im in work so cant see their bodies) But look - the "reserve" is white, smaller, and has no pilot chute, (I can't count the cells again cos I can't zoom in - anyone?)... all things to be said about most reserves... Of course these don't preclude it from being a CRW canopy but it does at least show that they have taken care to make it look as realistic as possible if it is not genuine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #21 January 14, 2004 QuoteI still have a mental image of the video from the "Two Canopys Out Study", done several years ago. I seem to recall that when chopping one canopy from a side-by-side, there is a very real possibility of the risers from the released canopy, snagging on the side of the remaining reserve canopy, or its lines. And that can cause collapse of the one good canopy you have remaining, destroying your chances of a safe landing. Are you thinking of the video, "Malfunction"? They showed a test jumper cutting away the main in a bi-plane situation. The main almost snagged the reserve, folding it up for a second until the main cleared. All the side-by-side cutaways they showed cleared cleanly. I've done a few side-by-side cutaways and they cleared cleanly. I think there is only a small chance of an entanglement from cutting away the main in a side-by-side. Taking a side-by-side to a downplane will put the canopies into a down plane, but they will not want to stay that way. In trying to keep them in a down plane I have managed to have both canopies return to a side-by-side flying backwards, with both canopies having 180-degree line twists. The only way to keep them in a downplane have one canopy in front with no line twists and the other behind the jumper with a 180-degree line twist. The danger of 2-out is that, with what we know now, the stability of the the 2 canopies flying together cannot be predicted. They may be very stable, on the edge of entangling in the slightest turbulence or input, or may entangle immediately upon deployment of the second canopy. There are a lot of different possible main-reserve combinations possible today, that testing every configuration would be costly. I would like to see some of the more popular main-reserve configurations tested in 2-out situations. Because of the unkowns and risk involved, 2-out situations should be avoided if at all possible and treated very seriously. On one of my test jumps when I deployed the second canopy, they immediately downplaned, then entangled. Upon releasing the second canopy, it remained antangled with the first, rendering it un-landable and neccitating the use of the last reserve. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #22 January 14, 2004 Quote Does everyone know what they would do in this situation? Fly 'em both in with small corrections if they are not conflicting with eachother. If they are, dive the reserve ever so slightly to pull the main back and chop main. how'd I do? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMO 0 #23 January 14, 2004 I’ll admit I’m always a little confused how to explain the proper procedures for a two canopy out situation. It is so situation dependent with canopy sizes, positions, altitude and all of the other factors you can think of having an effect on the actions that need to be taken. For instance I had an AAD misfire the reserve into my main at 4,000ft once; the two instantly entangled and the risers wrapped around my head so tightly that I couldn’t look up to see what was happening or down to find my handles. I opted to cut away in hopes the main would clear and give me a good reserve even though I could not look up to see what was happening, luckily it did. I think this is a great discussion, everyone who has found themselves in a two canopy out situation should tell us what happened and how they responded. This is one of the rare malfunction types where we could probably never cover all the possibilities. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 21 #24 January 14, 2004 QuoteInteresting parachute configuration, avoid this if you can. Does everyone know what they would do in this situation? I guess enough people have responded now, so it's time to answer the question. The answer is: "We let go of each other and flew our individual main canopies to landing." Congratulations for figuring it out go to mccordia, riggerrob, and rigging65 (I can't tell if rigging65 really knew, but the "turn it into a downplane" answer was a good one.) Special commendations to lug and mr2mk1g for asking questions about the picture before responding. And that damned sducoach just can't keep a secret about anything! This was an exercise in seeing how many people commented without really knowing everything about a subject, (which has been going on a lot in these forums.) I played it rather tricky on you, I admit, especially including "avoid this if you can" in the title. The Sharpchuter main is all white and the pilot chute is often camera-shy. Thanks to Tammy R. for the picture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #25 January 14, 2004 Very good Gary. Most times I just read and learn in these forums. I think what got most people was that you couldn't see the pilot chute on the Sharpchuter.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
