why dont you post your jump numbers?

[happythoughts 0]

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the kinda funny thing is, Ron... throughout this whole debate, I was never talking about "you" personally.

Whew! I was beginning to think you guys were dating or something. Since, Ron thinks you're cute and you were arguing all the time, that's the guidelines for all his relationships.

[billvon 3,108]

>3. welcome to come up to the front of the class and give it a go themselves.

Not really an option in skydiving. People would die.

[Nightingale 0]

very true... but Ron asked about what I'd do in a karate school.

I think I did say in that post that letting a newbie teach part of an FJC wouldn't work.

[billvon 3,108]

>I think I did say in that post that letting a newbie teach part of an FJC wouldn't work.

Yep. I think you have to use different standards in skydiving; learning by trial and error is a bad idea.

[Nightingale 0]

you can learn from other's errors, though.

I'm just saying that if newbies' questions and comments are brushed off without good answers, just because they're newbies, they won't learn anything at all.

[billvon 3,108]

>I'm just saying that if newbies' questions and comments are brushed
> off without good answers, just because they're newbies, they won't
> learn anything at all.

I think that often the issue is that the newbie gets a good answer but doesn't like it.

"You're not ready for that canopy."
"Why?"
"Because you only put two jumps on the 190 and you haven't wrung it out yet."
"I did so!"
"Really? You can flat turn, flare turn, blah blah?"
"Yeah, all that stuff's easy."
"You're not ready."
"You're not answering my question!"

[Nightingale 0]

sure, that sometimes happens...

did anyone try to explain to the newbie what happens when you downsize too quickly? About how canopies work with relation to wing loading, line length, responsiveness, etc...? or was he just told "you're not ready" and no more than that?

[wmw999 2,584]

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did anyone try to explain ...

I'd be willing to bet that anyone who takes the time to work with newer people will figure out that pointing out examples of bad judgement is a good addition to trying to encourage good judgement.

Of course, then folks will say that the particular example chosen was a bad one; maybe because the situation was not exactly the same (they never are exactly the same), maybe because the subject was a good friend and it's insensitive, or maybe because the person being talked to just doesn't think it will happen to them.

And maybe the instructor in this case does not, in fact, have perfect knowledge of aerodynamics; just enough experience to know that the wingloading/experience combination he's talking to is likely to be problematic.

Some people learn best by experiencing things themselves. There are parts of this sport where that is lethally dangerous.

Some instructors are different -- just as there are different learning styles, there are different teaching styles. Why should an instructor who favors the blunt approach, which works with the vast majority of students they deal with, change it to one that they are less likely to be effective with (because they're working so hard on delivery that content takes a dive).

There are folks who listen better to bluntness than tact. And no, I'm no longer a current instructor. But I was a darn good instructor when I was current. Just not for everyone.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Nightingale 0]

hmm...

another example...

In the gear forum, I posted a question about jumping camera, strictly from a curiosity point of view. I said in my post that I have NO intention of strapping a camera to my head anytime in the future, the question was simply out of curiosity.

I got quite a few emails saying "WTF are you thinking? You don't have high enough jump numbers to be thinking about jumping camera!!"

They didn't read my post... I asked when someone should start thinking about it, and what level they should be at with their skills. I did not say I was going to go out and do it. I'm not, and said as much. I got jumped on anyway.

If someone with a couple hundred jumps had posted that, the answer probably would have been different, even though the question would have been the same.

[AggieDave 6]

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In the gear forum, I posted a question about jumping camera, strictly from a curiosity point of view. I said in my post that I have NO intention of strapping a camera to my head anytime in the future, the question was simply out of curiosity.

That attitude comes from experience. The longer your in the sport, you'll have people with low jump numbers ask you questions about stuff like that, just out of curiosity. All it takes is a couple of those folks going out and trying it even though they asked for "curiosity" and then you will understand.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[champu 1]

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In the gear forum, I posted a question about jumping camera, strictly from a curiosity point of view. I said in my post that I have NO intention of strapping a camera to my head anytime in the future, the question was simply out of curiosity.

A rather large peeve of the experienced crowd are people that ask a question in 20 different venues "out of curiousity" looking (subconciously?) for someone willing to say

"well, I knew a guy way back when who started jumping camera with 100 jumps and now he flies for some team somewhere and is great."

which is really the last thing someone with our jump numbers needs to hear if they're thinking about doing something stupid.

[Amazon 7]

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i see alot of " never enough" or just leaving that slot blank. why fill out time in sport, lisc, ext. and not jump numbers. i dont know why it bothers me i guess it just does.

Neeneer Neener.. cause I dont wanna.....and you can't make me

[Nightingale 0]

But assuming that everyone who posts a question out of curiosity is going to go out and do something dumb isn't a good approach either.

[Clownburner 0]

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Neeneer Neener.. cause I dont wanna.....and you can't make me

IIRC, you did have your time in sport filled out originally, but it started a debate about how someone who's only 29 could possibly have been in the sport 30+ years.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[AggieDave 6]

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But assuming that everyone who posts a question out of curiosity is going to go out and do something dumb isn't a good approach either.

That's why if someone asks me those sorts of questions in person, I can make that judgement call then. Especially if I know them or not.

On the net...well, its not worth dealing with people that have their head planted up their ass. They can go talk to folks on their own DZ about it. If they're having to come here to ask because people won't help them on their own DZ, there's probably a reason for it!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[WrongWay 0]

Wow, what a heated debate we have here.

Here's my reason for not posting my jump numbers. I do have less than 1000 jumps, this is true. In fact I only have around 400, but 200 of those are coached freefly dives, and I also have about 3 hours of coached tunnel time. It's quality, not quantity. I'm a one-trick wonder, I only know freefly. I spread only knowledge I have from my own flying, and 90% of that has come from coached dives from very highly experienced professionals with several thousand jumps. I don't have a lot of jumps, but I've been on 6 way head down dives and kept up with the others, jumped with spaceballs in full control (not ballmastering), done 5-6 transitions with docks in between on a single dive, kept up with flailing newbies and yes, even passed on a few tips here and there on the freefly forum. Does this mean I'm special, like a prodigy or something? Of course not. Does this mean I'm qualified to start charging a slot, a pack job, and 35 bucks for coaching? No way in hell. But I think having that much coaching and tunnel time focusing on a single skill (freefly) at least gave me a better idea of body positioning and flying skills in that particular discipline than I would have had if I had done 400 or even 1000 no-goal screw around dives.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[cocheese 0]

So change your number to
400+ + +
(or else I'm going to put <1,000,000.)
The manatee.

[crutch 0]

Okay, so you have the experience to advise someone on freeflying, but there is a huge difference when it comes to other parts of the skydive. I think the jump #'s are great, it puts some credibility into what some people are saying. It also lets the reader take other advice with a grain of salt.

Kris, I once caught my instructor with a punch to the sternum during a sparring session (I held off, but he knew he could have been had). I then got pummeled for the next two minutes. The thing is, listening to his advice is what got me the oppurtunity to catch him. Because I caught him once, did not give me the abilility to teach it to someone else.

blue skies,

art

[Ron 10]

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the kinda funny thing is, Ron... throughout this whole debate, I was never talking about "you" personally.

Every time I used "you" it was in the hypothetical sense.

I kinda knew that, but I have been accused of those very things...So defended them from a personal position.

I took no harm from you, and I hope I didn't give you any. I tried to use MA as a basis since it is something you are quite skilled at, and I know something about. Just to prove a point that "Tokens" of experience be it jump numbers or colored belts do give some indication of who is trustworth or capable...While not 100% accurate it is a good start.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Here's my reason for not posting my jump numbers. I do have less than 1000 jumps, this is true. In fact I only have around 400, but 200 of those are coached freefly dives, and I also have about 3 hours of coached tunnel time. It's quality, not quantity I'm a one-trick wonder, I only know freefly. I spread only knowledge I have from my own flying, and 90% of that has come from coached dives from very highly experienced professionals with several thousand jumps. I don't have a lot of jumps, but I've been on 6 way head down dives and kept up with the others, jumped with spaceballs in full control (not ballmastering), done 5-6 transitions with docks in between on a single dive, kept up with flailing newbies and yes, even passed on a few tips here and there on the freefly forum. Does this mean I'm special, like a prodigy or something? Of course not. Does this mean I'm qualified to start charging a slot, a pack job, and 35 bucks for coaching? No way in hell. But I think having that much coaching and tunnel time focusing on a single skill (freefly) at least gave me a better idea of body positioning and flying skills in that particular discipline than I would have had if I had done 400 or even 1000 no-goal screw around dives.

Not slamming on you but you did walk right into this...

Here is an example of a guy that thinks he is better than his jump #'s. (And in truth he might be...And I am sure he is better than me at headdown). And he goes to great extent to show why he is better than his jump #;s indicate..And it might be true.

But he didn't like the idea of people not listening to him just based on jump numbers....Well he only has 400+ jumps and that means 400+ canopy flights, and 400+ landings, 400+ openings, 400+ ect. So while his coaching, and tunnel time might make him fly in freefall like he has 600 jumps...He still only has 400+.

And thats not alot.

So while he might be giving good FF advice (Which I know nothing about so I would not mention) He might give crappy canopy advice...And I would call him to the carpet on it.

Besides his only reason for not including jump numbers is his ego....Wanting to be taken more seriously than his jump numbers indicate....

Thats the wrong reason.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[cocheese 0]

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1) Some made only a few jumps in those many years.
2) Some are better fliers than the jumps would indicate.
3) Some want to keep ya guessing.
4) some don't want to brag or be judged by jump numbers.
5) Some don't want to be perceived as a know-it-all or don't know shit.
6) some people do stuff or don't do stuff for reasons we'll never know or understand.

wow , I thought this first post covered everything to kill the thread
I still do.

[Amazon 7]

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IIRC, you did have your time in sport filled out originally, but it started a debate about how someone who's only 29 could possibly have been in the sport 30+ years.

Shush.. this is all part of my new cover... yes I am very new to the sport... and only 29.. uh huh right

[cocheese 0]

I thought Amazon started skydiving before birth. Do the math.
I vote Amazon for best dropzone.com attitude.
You're killin me babe.

[Amazon 7]

Hey I know people who had more than 40 jumps before they were born

Well their moms did at least.. and they were along for the ride.... sorta like a tandem dont ya think???

[cocheese 0]

Did they become skydivers ? Belly fliers ?
Always leave a room by jumping out the window ?