Large Skydivers

[ChrisL 2]

Quote

Don't be a smart A$$. I feel for the DZO of your Drop zone.. you have a bad attitude.. and if you plan to last along time at a small DZ which are normally "family" oriented, you'll have to change your tune about being "a paying customer" and not giving a **** about the operation.

God Bless your soul.

Actually its you thats being the smart ass man
I'm just giving you my "off the cuff" reaction to your post and I think its a fairly legitimate point of view.

It really isnt my job to worry about those things. Its yours. My job is to worry about the jump, my gear, my companions, etc.

By the way, that plane was freshly fueled (tanks full) and filled with jumpers. Reguaar sized people yes, but not midgets or children. We got to 12k in less than 30 minutes. Granted, the Cessna in question has been modified with a more powerful engine and wing extentions, etc.

Even so, the pilot of the aircraft is the guy that needs to make the call on the spot if the load is too heavy.
He should do it on the ground before taking off, not drop jumpers at lower altitudes than they paid for and then tell them in a public forum that they are the ones that are at fault.

__

My mighty steed

[PhreeZone 20]

360 Out the door... just make sure the pilot is fully aware of your weight before climbing in. They figure 185 on the weight and balence sheets of the plane and almost double the figured weight could really screw up a few peoples day if they are not expecting it.

On turbines like the Otter this is less important, but on a Cessna its critical.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[atsaubrey 0]

Sorry I was trying to be funny but guess it wasnt taken that way.

"GOT LEAD?"

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

not as a personal crack against your superior physique.

Ok, first of all, I said I'm an avid weight lifter, not a body builder. I'm just a big guy, bit of a beer gut that likes to lift very heavy barbells in the gym.

Quote

I dare your DZO to weigh every load

Guess what? We basically do that, we have everyone's weight in the manifesting software, if the total is over a certain weight (don't know the actual number, I just know its within the placecarded limits) it red flags the load. We've actually rearranged some jumps to be after fuel loads (only bumping back a load, usually) or limited the plane to only 3 people more then a few times (when in our 182). We keep to the weights and balances of our twin turbine as well (although, even with a full load we're not even near the placecarded limits).

I guess its nice to have a DZ setup that works well AND keeps to safe weights and operating procedures with their airplanes!

Quote

And the "texan" remark... I've never been there, but assuming you're referring to "larger" than normal people...

That was a joke, since it seems to me that we have more "bigger" (not fat necissarily, just big) folks jumping then what I've seen at other places (and from pictures of jumpers from other places).

Quote

Its the DZO that loses money man...And if the DZO loses money.. you won't have a DZ and I won't have a job.

Ok, basic DZ economics, at a single 182 DZ, fun jumpers basically don't turn a profit. Just not enough slots overall that can be sold and turned, just not physically possible. The students are the money that keeps the DZ alive. That's why you see 182 DZs cranking out SL/IAD students like its going out of style. 1 instructor, 3 students per load, that's the money. Tandems bring in a bit, but the SL/IAD is where the cash is at for a 182 DZ.

If you're trying to blame a dying or stale DZ on some fun jumpers there that are bigger...well, that's sad, maybe you should look at what the DZ is doing to advertise in the "real world" to pull in more and more students. Get then trained and jumping, keep new students coming in and the DZ will be making money.

Quote

Alrighty then. Got someone fired up about this one!

Yeah, so I went ahead and took the bite on the TROLL line. *shrug* happens, not only that, but I don't want some low time jumper reading your post and think its the word of god, thinking that its safe to jump in an overloaded jump plane. Thinking that the only bad thing that happens from that is it takes longer to get up to altitude and its more uncomfortable!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

im 360lbs otd..

***
Hey..
I got a couple of Mighty Mac's if ya wanna
push the wing loading envelope a little more
than you are!
(Maybe see how your reserve flies)

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

You can stay between 10 and 13 thousand feet for roughly 30 minutes before hypoxia sets in.

Where did you get you information? Hypoxia can start as low as 5,000 feet above the area you normally live at. As a pilot, or required flight crew, you are required to have use O2 if above 12,500 for more than 30 minutes and any time you are above 14,000. All these altitudes are MSL which means most DZ's in the US need to subtract for those figures.

As Phree said, hypoxia affects different people in different ways. Have you ever been through a chamber class or flown to "high" altitudes? For you to make a blanket statement like the one above is indicates a lack of training in the physiology affects of altitude on the human body.

Doesn't FAR Part 91.103 require you compute a W&B on the aircraft prior to the flight. Guessing can get people killed.

It would seem that if a climb to 10.500 within the W&B limits of the aircraft is taking as long as you say, the engine might be in need of some major work.

Lastly, if you would put a little information about yourself in you profile it would go a long way toward making your posts credible. If not, you come across as just so much noise in the background. jmo
Sparky
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[slotperfect 7]

Here are a few tips for you:

-if you want to educate, don't aggravate . . . it's obvious by your "don't take this the wrong way" disclaimer that you knew already this would happen.

-fill out your profile. You have only been registered three months and have contributed to only one thread. Your profile will help your credibility immensely here in the forums.

-leave your "blame thrower" in its holster. "It's your fault" is inflammatory and encourages argumentative posting which is not supportive of the reason for your post.

-be objective and not biased. Your whole post paints you as biased toward larger skydivers (like me). You may not be, but your language in the post, especially the "big mac" comment, present you that way.

-personal attacks are not allowed in these forums (see the forum rules). Telling someone else they have a "bad attitude" closely approaches that line. I suggest you be more respectful of others in the forums, especially when you seem to be attempting to post something constructive.

Arrive Safely

John

[jimmytavino 16]

.... Let's chill out a little here...
Slyder's point regarding "unanticipated" extra weight
is valid right after a refuel....BUT...
If the plane's in good shape,,, it should handle it...
At most places, manifesting is done on a first come first served basis... and if it's a Cesnna DZ we wait
long enough as it is for our load to come up....
...Are you saying that a load should scratch,, or else reconfigure it's personnel... simply because YOU are due for fuel????? If you are looking for communication from manifest... Do it yourself....
Are you not in radio contact with your manifest??? Can't they inform you of whether your next load is a 4 way at altitude or a SL load to 3 grand????...Perhaps the " load" load has been waiting for 2 hours or more, as it is.....
and perhaps people on that load... ( Large And Small ) may NOT have the luxury of "giving up their slot" to wait for when the tanks are less full... Maybe they have other things to do, away from the DZ maybe they have to get to work, or have other responsibilities.....
Simply because you have all day to be at the DZ in order "to build Hours" not all jumpers can devote the entire day.... You noticed a concern regarding "large Skydivers".. but then directed your criticism toward them instead of toward your DZO....
Work it out......and fuel accordingly but please don't ask ANYone to bump from a load beacuse you topped off the tanks....
I have made more than my share of Cessna jumps over the years,,, and if not for turbines and large cabin aircraft,, i would have " thrown in the towel " years ago......cessnas are fine,,, and the workhorse of DZ's... blah blah blah.... I've heard it all.. If you work at a place that only does between 80 and 100
total skydives a DAY....... be grateful for those fun jumpers who fill your plane the first thing in the morning,, ( before the students barge in and take over) and who also hang around late into the day ( after the students are gone) and make those last 3 or 4 loads as the sun is setting...Coodinate with the manifest and DZO,,, Yourself.... it isn't up to the jumpers...
.... " I'd rather take an Otter,,, Freefall for 30 seconds and "find myself at 9,500 feet "..,,,
" than take a Cessna, Sit in a plane for 30 Minutes !!..
.. and "find myself at 9,500 feet "

[PhreeZone 20]

Quote

Are you saying that a load should scratch,, or else reconfigure it's personnel... simply because YOU are due for fuel?

Yes, if it puts the plane over the weight and balence then the pilot has every right and its their duty to start kicking people out before take off to bring the plane back into legal limits.

Quote

perhaps people on that load... ( Large And Small ) may NOT have the luxury of "giving up their slot" to wait for when the tanks are less full...

Your choice, risk crashing the plane since you are 500 pounds over max gross limits since you refuse to take the bump and talk the pilot into flying you with full tanks, or fly the plane in the legal limits for weight even if it means someone might not get to go up on that load.

I like being safe and helping the pilots stay under max gross.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

-leave your "blame thrower" in its holster.

Quote

Bawhahaha!

I'm gonna steal that line!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jimmytavino 16]

. yes you are correct Phree...but I learned to defer to the pilot in most ALL cases regarding the plane....
My point is that you don't just " load up the tanks" in the first place.....
Now the ball is in the pilots court and IF he says something then a dialouge should begin...
If he asks if someone would like to bump...
then fine.. let's discuss it.... If he says nothing,
then we board as usual...
Yes yes a concern could develop at rotation.. or could not....Common practice is to seat the larger jumpers, forward in the cabin, anyway....
If a pilot asks to "readjust" the jumpers who are boarding then I'm impressed with that..
And i cooperate. It may turn into a 3 way load...I might be on it I might not..... no big deal....
( except maybe,,, to the DZO,,, who may cry about the lost revenue... go figure )

I like being safe and respecting
max gross limits too.
150 200 pounds is enough to discuss it , let alone 500 . ( if we're talkin' cessna )
I have had the privilege of jumping very well maintained planes, the small one especially,,, and the large ones as well..( always had good DZO's )
I have never been involved in a take off emergency,,
ever. It's because not One of the dropzones which I ever called Home,,, at one time or another,,, EVER had one.!!!..while I was there or while i was not..
...There have been a few landing mishaps
but never a take- off problem..
So that being my experience,,, I'd be ok with boarding...
Down to it ,,,the pilot makes the call and we all do our best to cooperate....
Slyder seemed to notice the effort the plane was making,, well after the take off roll.and climb out.... It worked out ok here, but has become a good lesson for pilots and jumpers alike....

[nightjumps 1]

Quote

the pilot probably fueled up for 3 loads with MINIMAL reserves.. and now he's thinking he might only get 2 loads. Which ultimately slows down the operation. I personally try to get 15-20 loads a day, and if I see my plane that normally climbs at 600+ FPM doing under 400 FPM..

I'm 270# OTD w/personal rig.
290# with my tandem rig.
We operate a big boy DZ (Oklahoma & Texas does that a lot)

We have a system whereby we run for 2 loads with MAXIMUM reserves. After the second load, there are two 5 gallon jugs on the ground. The pilot jumps out and "sticks the tanks."

He tells us how much fuel to put on. One of us on either wing drops the 5 gallon jugs into the wingtips and fuels up what the pilot tells us.

The pilot "resticks the tanks" and if satisfied, climbs back in and everyone loads up. Total time - about 3 minutes.

With this, we can run 20-25 loads per day. It is a complementary blend of communication, teamwork, respect and systematic testing to make an efficient team for the pilot, manifest, students, fun jumpers and the DZO.

It requires a "little" team effort in the beginning to get the tempo, fuel and flying coordinated. Not that unlike a "pit crew" at Nascar.

By doing this, we have increased our total number of loads, opened the channels of communication, and increased our FPM from 500 to 800'.

We get 10,000 in 15-18 minutes.
In testing, even if we dropped the 10 gals in EVERY load, Total turn around time is 22 minutes (takeoff to reload).

Assuming 30 minutes per turnaround with potty breaks, missed communication, checking oil, etc. Therefore, 13 hours of operation/30 minutes = 26 loads for the day.

Perhaps your DZ should consider building better team processes rather than having individualized lines of responsibilities.

Its everyone's job on the DZ to work together to turn barriers into bridges.

[ChrisL 2]

BTW, I've never been dropped lower than my altitude and my weight has nothing to do with consumption of big macs.

I hear your message, but you might have phrased it differently.
You come across sounding like you are attacking heavy guys and placing all the responsibilty for managing the weight of the load on the jumpers.
Thats almost guaranteed to make sure that people DONT hear your message.

__

My mighty steed

[Slyder 0]

Ok Guys

1st. My apologizies for the "big mac" comment and any other comments that you or your friends may have taken to heart.

If you read the facts of what I'm trying to say, you might understand a bit better what im getting at.

As I said I've only accumulated about 1000 hours flying jump 182's in 3 DZ's around the North America. Chances are, I haven't flown at your DZ, so I'm not familiar with how they do things.

I've also noticed this thread is going around in circles to a certain extent, and would like to kill it, but would like to make my point as to not cause anymore ill feelings. My goal of this was to extend a little knowledge to some of the new and old skydivers who in my experience don't appreciate or may be naive as to the efforts of the jump plane.

Bottom line of what I'm saying is fact, and non arguable: (but generalized)

The plane will climb faster if its lighter. I will gaurantee that not all DZ's have a computerized weight and balance with someone punching in numbers for every load. These planes do and always will go overweight. Personally - yes, I do bump people if i have to, even if they are geared up on a hot turn and I see trouble, but the green pilot who is lucky to have a job and doesn't want to piss people off... he'll be more likely to look the other way, and enter in the (ave male wt) + gear weight. That pilot and the pax are now in jeopordy, don't try to argue the point because I've seen it happen one too many times. I've heard the line "if you won't take this load, I know someone who will" from a few operators. Or "the last pilot could do it". These are things I don't think most jumpers understand. The 182's can take more than the gross weight, quite easily, but the structure if subject to any kind of abnormal manuevre caused either by the pilot "doing a neg. G" or by unexpected turbulence may cause the aircraft to exceed its stress level. Sure the wings might not snap off that time, but 10, 20, 50 overloads later, little jimmy and his 4 skydivers will run into troubles. Not alot of DZO's are pilots, so when they do get a guy who fly's a machine "successfully" overweight, he is apt to be a tad upset when a guy who does things by the book, says no to a guy geared up on a hot turn.

Bottom line guys - there are alot of new pilots out there that will "work for food" and who just need a job so bad that they'll do anything for it (I'm speaking from Canada's perspective right now). They will "assume" that if they see a large load come out that it's okay, or that they have to do it to save their job. I want the heavier guys to be a bit more "aware" in this case, it is your life, and these planes do go up overweight, and yes the overweight planes do get to altitude, and maybe they get there in good time, but it is still unsafe.

So next time you see yourself walking out to that poor bagged out 182 with 3 of your larger buddies, I hope you think a bit before climbing in there as to what is going through the pilots mind.

Slyder

[Slyder 0]

Thanks for the tips. I'll look into that method for this DZ.

Slyder

[riggerrob 643]

Slyder,
I feel for you buddy.
The first Canadian DZ that I flew for only had a worn out Cessna 172. With three jumpers on board, it would not climb above 5,000' on a hot summer day. And jumpers were not educated well enough to understand the danger of over-loading the airplane, so they kept asking me to fly with four and I kept saying no. My stubborn attitude caused no end of friction.

[Slyder 0]

Yes hypoxia can start as low as 5,000 feet. Good for you. I'm sorry that I did not foot note my information. Being a Canadian pilot, and I believe the FAR's are roughly the same give or take. Hypoxia (for the majority of people) is negligable or non existant below that alititude (10,000feet), and becomes more of an issue between 10, and 13,000 feet. In the CAR's (the canadian FAR's) you can only stay between 10 and 13 thousand for 30 minutes. The FAR's as you point out are very similar.

"For me to make a "blanket" statment like that is INDICATIVE of a lack of training."

Wow. So I guess by referring to the CAR's and FAR's, they too are lacking in training, because they have set some pretty firm standards on this "blanket" statment.

I do have time in a HAC, that still doesn't make me an expert. When you fly an airliner your cabin altitude is actually 8 to 9 thousand feet MSL. BRING ON THE HYPOXIA!

I'm trying to stay as ojective as I can, but this is sick. Your the exact type of person I'm trying to help out, because if you think that all drop zones fly at or below gross take off weight, you're very wrong. This is where this string comes from.

Yes this is my only post, does that make it any less credable? Do I need to footnote my material? Do I need to put 100000000 jumps and 14 years behind my name to tell you that 4 big guys will make a plane climb slower or not at all. In my opinion, no. You can find out the hard way. And this noise in the background has obviously hit a nerve with some people. I threw up one more string on this post explaining again, in more blunt terms why, and what I'm getting at.

Take it, learn and help out your fellow jumpers, pilot, and DZO, or don't.... it's up to you.

Slyder

[Slyder 0]

Thanks Rob,

Good to hear some other guys are having the same experiences. With 400+ views on this string and 40 replies, I'm hoping the people who aren't putting in their 2 cents have been in the situation, or have learned something from this.

Slyder

[Breezejunky 0]

Wow, I see there are a few touchy ones here!

You have very valid points and I think you presented them well. You said it was a bit of a rant and it was. I thought that was ok to do on this forum. It didn't sound winey to me. I thought the big mac comment was funny myself and I'm surprised anyone took offense to it.
I was 220 (without gear) when I started jumping and sometimes when we saw we had a heavy load AND the pilot just fueled we were bummed too, but not about to bump ourselves as it's hard enough to get on a load. There was even the odd time (before we got the new engine and wing extensions) when the pilot called it quits on the climb and we got out early. Usually by that time we didn't care as we were sick of being in the plane anyway and that last 1000 feet was not worth the extra 8 minutes! There were plenty of times we got extra altitude so it all works out in the end. It is just something to think about if you can people. On one hand we have people talking about the family atmoshpere and jumping with everyone regardless of size then someone else saying that they are a paying customer and expect full altitude and to hell with the DZO...well, some "family" DZ's consider the DZO as part of the family. They have to make a living folks. Also, some older 182's starting off from a higher field elevation on a hot humid day will take so long to get to altitude that the DZO would definately take a loss. It may have nothing at all to do with the quality of the maintenance. There can be a HUGE difference between the performance of two perfectly healthy 182's!

I agree with what someone said and chill out people!

Rhonda

[slotperfect 7]

At Carolina Sky Sports in Louisburg, NC, when you turn in your ticket at manifest, they have you write your name and your weight on it. I assume this is for manifest to help the pilots build an aircraft lift that is safely loaded. Maybe someone who is a regular at CSS can add something to this??

Arrive Safely

John

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I agree with what someone said and chill out people!
Rhonda

People stayed chilled. It was a whiny rant and they responded properly. Unless Slyder wants a plane full of 5'7" types, he's going to have 200lb'ers on board. I'd love to see him compare his body fat levels with the weight lifters too. It started as frustration for him with a big load, but it's driven by his conviction that these guys are fat slobs.. A little education is in order. And if it's a problem at that DZ, the solution is on the ground, either in a rate adjustment or different proceedures.

Phree- 6'2", 175, is not average weight. I'd peg that at least 15-20 low.

[PhreeZone 20]

Quote

Phree- 6'2", 175, is not average weight. I'd peg that at least 15-20 low.

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/bmi/calc-bmi.htmRight in the middle of the Normal weight status Take a look at that site and see where you rank on the scales.

I honestly don't think a lot of jumpers care about weight or balence issues on jump planes. They assume that unless the pilot throw up a flag that they are good to go. Its every jumpers responcibility to help keep the plane with in legal limits. The pilot is the one putting his ticket on the line, but everyone is putting their lives on the line hoping that overloading the plane does'nt come back to bite them this time or the next...

Your average Cessna 182 is only certified to have a max gross take off weight of ~2650, 2950 or 3100 (depends on the year). The empty weight tends to be 1500-1600 pounds. So that leaves you 1500 pounds for fuel, fuel reserves, oil, pilot, and jumpers. Figure 15 gallons per hour fuel flow, gas it up for two loads and the 30 minute reserve is at least 25 gallons gas if not more.

2950 (Max Gross)-
1500 (empty weight)-
200 (Fuel)-
200 (pilot and bail out rig)

This leaves you at about 1050 pounds for the jumpers. You can do the math, at 200 per person geared up you are just under max gross, start tossing in larger guys and you go over quickly.

Everyone assumes that they are jumping from the plane. The 182's are only rated for a max gross landing weight of 2950 or 3100 (DOM again). The plane might take off ok overloaded, but a hard landing overloaded with jumpers might not be the best idea in the world.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/bmi/calc-bmi.htmRight in the middle of the Normal weight status Take a look at that site and see where you rank on the scales.

Ok, side note, the BMI scale is basically bullshit. Is your weight right for your height? Well, that depends on your frame, body type, etc. The only true way to tell is to get your body fat percentage. My BMI is 33, which is obese, I average around 13% bodyfat (I just checked, using the industry standard caliper method and it shows at 12.5% today). Definately not obese!

Ok, the point is, there are many jumpers and they come in many shapes and sizes and at the end of the day it is the pilots responsibility to make sure his/her plane is NOT over weight. If you have two load manifested and your "bigboy" load is right after the fuel load, switch the loads around, no one "looses" a jump, and everyone is happy (not to mention legal to fly).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Breezejunky 0]

Whether 4'2" and 200 lbs (fat-I don't care how much weight they lift) or 6'11" and 200 lbs (skinny) the weight is the same. Four 200 lb wonders plus gear in a freshly fuelled 182 is going to make for a slower climb. I really don't think Slyder was cutting up fat people.
Even skinny people should think twice about eating Big Macs.
(Woppers are way better)

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Most of the signs I've seen at DZs say

$A to B feet
$B to C feet
etc.

or $A to B feet + $C/1000 feet.

Before you pay, the DZO is free to ammend things. "There are clouds. The last load got only 10K feet. You're paying full price" or "If it gets too windy and we call the load you get your ticket back".

After, you have a contract and ought to expect your altitude although you might get bored and call for a low jump run.

If that doesn't work well, the DZO is free to change things. I've been to DZs with a tandem weight surcharge - you could do the same thing for experienced jumpers, or note the ceiling as a functioning of gross weight.

Promising full altitude and then not delivering is a contract violation.