AFF student on Anti depresants?

[rgoetsch 0]

aside from all these arguments- most waivers have a section for medical disclosure. It sounds as if this is the first that this instructor has heard of this student taking medication. If the student did not disclose this on the waiver then that is the same as falsifying the waiver. The DZ needs all the info in case of an emergency- the student may not be able to tell the ER what meds they are on to avoid interactions, etc. If the student wants to skydive they need to disclose everything and find someone that will accept the added or perceived risks associated. It is unfair and unethical to the instructor to lie to them and put them in a bad position in case of emergency.
Emergencies when flying happen at a much lower rate of speed than skydiving yet pilots are prohibited from taking many common antidepressants. Each person is individual and there are FAA waivers for some cases to get a medical but it is case by case. Why should skydiving be any different?

"If you're not on the centerline -you're out of control"

[kelpdiver 2]

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Has anyone ever thought of the possibility that taking up skydiving could give a person who was depressed a new outlook on life and resultingly make them less suicidal or even not suicidal at all?

These drugs are supposed to correct for a chemical imbalance - something that skydiving will not do.

That said, I believe the mental healthy industry is far too quick to proscribe drugs over other forms of treatment - esp for depression and "ADD" - and for that reason wouldn't draw any conclusions about people taking them.

[benny 0]

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Has anyone ever thought of the possibility that taking up skydiving could give a person who was depressed a new outlook on life and resultingly make them less suicidal or even not suicidal at all?

These drugs are supposed to correct for a chemical imbalance - something that skydiving will not do.

That said, I believe the mental healthy industry is far too quick to proscribe drugs over other forms of treatment - esp for depression and "ADD" - and for that reason wouldn't draw any conclusions about people taking them.

While I agree that anti-depressants are intended to correct chemical imbalances, and that they are over-prescribed, I disagree that brain chemistry is not affected by activities (skydiving or otherwise). Nonetheless, I say jump on!

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[mikecm469 1]

I'm going to have to agree with benny on this. I started skydiving almost a year ago, while taking anti-depressants. I have since quit taking them and I have never been happier. Anti-depressants are not just prescribed by a psychiatrist but also by personal physicians and for numerous reasons. I have taken a couple of different kinds over the last few years and do know that different kinds and dosages affect different people differently. On one kind I seemed like a vegetable, I didn't have a care in the world, but the last kind I was on I was perfectly fine. I do understand your concern and if I were you I would sit down and see if your student would talk to you about it. Just be sure to let them know of your concern.

I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Emergencies when flying happen at a much lower rate of speed than skydiving yet pilots are prohibited from taking many common antidepressants. Each person is individual and there are FAA waivers for some cases to get a medical but it is case by case. Why should skydiving be any different?

Driving involves moving tons of steel arround a few feet from other people, in low light situations, and on slick roads. You can take a large number of passengers with you when you die. Arround here, you need to get a vision test every 10 years to drive.

Unless you're incredibly reckless you're not going to kill anyone else when you die skydiving or have a real effect on the community.

[Squeak 17]

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Anyway, I'm not going to go round and round the mulberry bush with you on this. You don't know what it is, and you're making judgments without knowledge as most do on this topic - it's all good...I don't take offense at you being normal. You are looking to be right, rather than understand. You're absolutely right for your life; as I am for mine.

I thank God (again) that you weren't my instructor, and that many folks have taken time to teach me about how to fly my body - one of the best things I've ever done for myself, with or without meds.
Ciels-
Michele

Yeah .. What she said.
YOU GO GIRL


I tend to get a sense of self preservation (arse saving) in a lot of what Ron posts. Not a bad thing per-sei but I would find it limiting to think that way all the time, but that's just me.
Live and let Live (or die)

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Beerlight 0]

Tonto,
I grabbed this info from AOPA.org website. This info pertains directly to "U.S. FAA certificated" pilots. So, take it for what it's worth. But, info is info....


"Any drug that produces drowsiness or other central nervous system effects and experimental or investigational drugs are prohibited. These medications include narcotic analgesics, stimulants, sedatives, hypnotics, amphetamines, barbiturates, anti-anxiety drugs, muscle relaxants, tranquilizers, and antipsychotics (neuroleptics). Among the drugs classified as stimulants is Ritalin, which is used to treat attention deficit disorder (ADD); however the FAA has allowed the use of Ritalin in a small number of cases involving ADD. Lithium carbonate, used to treat certain types of depressive disorders, may also be allowed after careful case evaluation.

All antidepressants, including the newer generation of selective serotonin reuptake inhibiting (SSRI) medications, such as Paxil, Prozac, Effexor, Celexa, and Zoloft, are currently disqualifying, regardless of the reason for their use.

Drugs that cause no apparent side effects on the ground can create serious problems with only moderate increases in altitude. Even for general aviation pilots flying at relatively low altitudes, the changes in concentrations of atmospheric gases, including oxygen and nitrogen, in the blood can enhance the effects of seemingly innocuous drugs and result in impaired judgment, decision-making, and performance."

[steve1 5]

I've got to agree with Michelle on this one. Just because someone is on an anti-depressant is not a red flag "at all" that someone is suicidal. Ant-depressants are taken for a variety of reasons including stress. I have more than one friend with a stressful job and their medical doctors prescribed a type of anti-depressant to help them cope. Psychiatrists are not the only people who can prescribe them.

Anti-depressants have to be one of the most common prescription medications out there, next to cholesterol-reducing drugs. In my opinion it is a huge misconception to think that just because someone who takes anti-depressants they might be some type of nut case who needs to be screened out of our sport. I also think the FAA needs to take a different stance on this issue.

In my opinion our sport is loaded with people who should be on anti-depressants and who are in need of serious therapy. Yet most are in such denial of their problem, that they'll never go for the help they need. Many often end up dead one way or another or even resort to drugs and alcohol abuse to cope. If you don't believe this, come to Lost Prairie next summer and I'll point out some of these jumpers to you. I work as a counselor, and I do have some training in the area.

I'd rather jump with someone who has come to grips with the fact they have a problem with depression and they are getting the help they need. Hell, I take Zolof myself. I wonder how many other jumpers out there take an anti-depressant. I'll bet the number would be a lot larger than most people realize. And then there are the jumpers who should be taking this medication but aren't. I'll be that number would be far greater yet....Steve1

[steve1 5]

[



All antidepressants, including the newer generation of selective serotonin reuptake inhibiting (SSRI) medications, such as Paxil, Prozac, Effexor, Celexa, and Zoloft, are currently disqualifying, regardless of the reason for their use.

Drugs that cause no apparent side effects on the ground can create serious problems with only moderate increases in altitude. Even for general aviation pilots flying at relatively low altitudes, the changes in concentrations of atmospheric gases, including oxygen and nitrogen, in the blood can enhance the effects of seemingly innocuous drugs and result in impaired judgment, decision-making, and performance."

[AggieDave 6]

Ron,

You've obviously never dealt with depression, or if you did, you did what a lot of folks have done (including myself) try to suck it up and move on.

I was on Celexia for a while, to help me get through some things (yes, obviously this was stopped atleast 90 days before I got my medical for TMing), did it effect my skydiving?

Yup! It actually helped me out a LOT! How? I didn't have suicidal tendancies even before being put on meds, depression doesn't automatically mean suicidal, it means you're depressed. I was depressed, unmotivated and just going through the motions and actually I would experienced extreme highs and lows before, during then after jumping. Being put on meds helped level me out until I was able, with the help of my shrink, to square away the demons in my life.

Should that AFF student continue to skydive? That is really between that person and their shrink. What effect might that drug do to a person at altitude? Well, ask a flight doc, sure, but I would be willing to put money down that the doc towed the FAA line that ALL antidepression meds are disallowed. That is truely asinine, since depression really fucks people up. Enough that it can cause mistakes, not necissarily intentional mistakes, but things can happen.

You seem to be very biased against folks who actually admit they have depression and work to fix it. Are you the same towards folks who admit they're alcoholics and try to fix it? What about other diseases? Are you biased towards those folks too?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Beerlight 0]

Read my post. I said that info was geared to "pilots". I wan't taking a position. He was just looking for info, I just happened to provide.

Although, I agree with you that I'd rather have a happy camper bailing out of my plane, than one that's on edge......

Buck

[Ron 10]

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Anyway, I'm not going to go round and round the mulberry bush with you on this. You don't know what it is, and you're making judgments without knowledge as most do on this topic - it's all good...I don't take offense at you being normal. You are looking to be right, rather than understand. You're absolutely right for your life; as I am for mine.

Oh I don't know huh? Well I could say the exact same to you. You can't see the dangers since you are in the middle of it. you can't look objectivly on this topic (Just like the out of shape topic mths ago) since you feel its a personal attack on you. I think you would rather be right in your thoughts that you are a capable student and in defending that you are glossing over that while YOU may not have thought about killing yourself, or maybe not doing it jumping the earlier link I posted showed that MANY have done that.

You can't see the clear logic in not letting someone who is depressed learn to skydive since you think its all about you.

Its about:
1. A higher risk of suicide.
2. A danger of survival complacency.
3. Possible negative reactions to meds, or to changing of meds.
4. The litigation that would surley follow a suicide of a depressed person if the DZO and Instructors knew.

If skydiving is OK while clinicly depressd what is your peoblem with makeing the person get a release? Simple, cause it would not happen. No Dr. is going to sign off for a depressed person to learn to skydive.

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I thank God (again) that you weren't my instructor, and that many folks have taken time to teach me about how to fly my body - one of the best things I've ever done for myself, with or without meds.

I would have never taken you as a student. The risk is to high for both you and me. I'm glad someone took you, but I would not risk it.

You think your high number of accidents has anything to do with your physical, and mental state...I do.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Michele 1]

Ron, you're so cute!

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You think your high number of accidents has anything to do with your physical, and mental state...I do.

high number of accidents? Um, which ones?

You can climb off your high horse here, my dear one. You don't understand depression, you're not listening to people who do, and you're starting to go personal. Again, mulberry bushes and all that.

Have a great evening!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Ron 10]

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You've obviously never dealt with depression, or if you did, you did what a lot of folks have done (including myself) try to suck it up and move on.

Bingo.....But then again I have had a medical since I was 20. So I would not go on Meds that would make me lose it anyway.

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Yup! It actually helped me out a LOT! How? I didn't have suicidal tendancies even before being put on meds, depression doesn't automatically mean suicidal, it means you're depressed. I was depressed, unmotivated

And you think someone that is depressed and unmotivated should be learning to skydive?

And how about this:

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On one kind I seemed like a vegetable, I didn't have a care in the world http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1071760#1071760

Should a guy that feels like a vegtable be allowed to jump?

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Should that AFF student continue to skydive? That is really between that person and their shrink.

So have them bring a note...I already said that if they brought clearance from the Dr's I would take them, but not before.

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What effect might that drug do to a person at altitude? Well, ask a flight doc, sure, but I would be willing to put money down that the doc towed the FAA line that ALL antidepression meds are disallowed.

You think that there might be a reason they are not allowed?

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You seem to be very biased against folks who actually admit they have depression and work to fix it.

No, I am biased against people who might be a risk.
If they can produce evidence that they are not a risk..Then cool beans. But I would not take a person up who has any other medical condition that could kill them (heart disease ect)...why would I just accept Depression?

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Are you the same towards folks who admit they're alcoholics and try to fix it?

Nope, but then again an alcoholic is only really dangerous when they are drinking..And I would not let someone on the plane that was drinking if I could help it.

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What about other diseases? Are you biased towards those folks too?

Such as?????? Heart disease...Unless you have medical signature,not getting on my plane. Epilepsy...With out a clean bill of health not getting on the plane. Diabeties (Which I have, and have a medical) not getting on the plane.

What part of this being a high risk, high speed sport that people with known medical problems should be cleared to participate in before they start is hard to understand?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nightjumps 1]

Hey bro,

The issue here is not about "bias." Its about disclosure and safety.

Did the student stipulate those meds on that waiver?
If not - one can explain to the student that they gave you "knowledge" (a legal issue) that they did not disclose prior to skydiving and you are required to ask for a doctor's release to continue skydiving.

In the unlikely event that something should go wrong. the courts "could" say that you "had knowledge" of the situation and "could" make the case for "gross negligence."

Imagine being on the stand and being ask, "So, Mr. Instructor, the student "X' told you the were on anti-depressants and you still allowed them to jump?" "Did you ask for a doctor's release?" At this point, you are hosed.

On a separate note, IMO there are too many doctors prescribing anti-depressants for situational depression, rather than clinical depression.

However, we as Instructors are not clinical psychologists or psychiatrists and have neither the ability or need to differentiate between the two. Once that student discloses their situation, they have left you no choice but to ask for a doctor's release.

[Ron 10]

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The issue here is not about "bias." Its about disclosure and safety.

Did the student stipulate those meds on that waiver?
If not - one can explain to the student that they gave you "knowledge" (a legal issue) that they did not disclose prior to skydiving and you are required to ask for a doctor's release to continue skydiving.

In the unlikely event that something should go wrong. the courts "could" say that you "had knowledge" of the situation and "could" make the case for "gross negligence."

Imagine being on the stand and being ask, "So, Mr. Instructor, the student "X' told you the were on anti-depressants and you still allowed them to jump?" "Did you ask for a doctor's release?" At this point, you are hosed.

On a separate note, IMO there are too many doctors prescribing anti-depressants for situational depression, rather than clinical depression.

However, we as Instructors are not clinical psychologists or psychiatrists and have neither the ability or need to differentiate between the two. Once that student discloses their situation, they have left you no choice but to ask for a doctor's release.

Bingo....Just like any other illness that might limit participation in this sport.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

Ron,
After all of the posts I've seen of yours, it's nice to see that you give a shit and that you're so passionate about what we, as skydivers, do.or don't do. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm sincere.

I know a lot of skydivers who are on Zoloft and are great skydivers and doing well for the most part. I personally think it'd be worse if they weren't treated. JMO..

_________________________________________

[Ron 10]

Lets take this to PM.
remove the PM block on me please.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Michele 1]

Done. But temporarily. If I don't like what I read, I will block you again. Fair enough?

Edited to add: I've replaced the block.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Ron 10]

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I know a lot of skydivers who are on Zoloft and are great skydivers and doing well for the most part. I personally think it'd be worse if they weren't treated.

I know at least one really good skydiver who is on Anti-depressants...He is in my opinion one of the best in the world.

However, he was cleared to jump by his Dr.

I'm not saying that the FAA is right about selective serotonin reuptake inhibiting (SSRI) medications being an automatic grounding.

But a person who is on them has two strikes against them:
1. They are depressed. Depression makes people do really stupid things.
2. They are on medications that can have very negative effects. And worse changes in medication can have negative effects.

If a person can produce documentation (or the FAA changes its position) then I would have no problem letting someone taking SSRI's on a jump. However, until then due to the possible dangers, and the very real danger of loosing a law suit exactly like night jumps wrote.

What I can't understand is how people think that it is any different than any other illness that might ground someone.

And I really don't get how people think that a STUDENT with this issues is OK.

The thing is I do understand it...Since a good number of people have been or are on Anti-depressants they seem to think its ok.

Well like I have said before if they can show me a Dr's note saying they are OK, then its OK...Just like every other illness.

If the USPA wanted to earn so of its keep...Maybe they should try and get the FAA to allow SSRI's for a class three, or just let them sign off a medicall for skydiving.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AggieDave 6]

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The issue here is not about "bias." Its about disclosure and safety.

Did the student stipulate those meds on that waiver?
If not - one can explain to the student that they gave you "knowledge" (a legal issue) that they did not disclose prior to skydiving and you are required to ask for a doctor's release to continue skydiving.

Bigun,

Thank you for that, you're right, I totally overlooked that side of things! From the get go, the thread was looking like a flat out witch hunt against people who have problems with depression, which just flat out pissed me off, thus, I definately missed the bottom line!

Well, if anything, this thread has made me come to a conclusion about how I ask my students about meds/medical conditions, I'm going to word it differently. That'll definatly help cover my ass and possibly keep my students safer.



Ron,

I want to publically apologize for the tone of my post, like I said above, what I saw was "witch hunt" and I got quick with the reply before the underlying issue was brought to my attention.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[nightjumps 1]

No worries, mate. Having come to "know" you somewhat, knew it was an emotional response rather than your usual logical ones.

[WrongWay 0]

First of all, I haven't read the whole thread because frankly, it's freakin' huge.

For what it's worth, I'm on Zoloft, which is an anti-depressant similar to prozac and paxil. However, it's for my Tourettes/ADD as opposed to depression. (No I don't go into cussing fits...@$#^%$#@^@) I don't take it on days when I skydive because I find myself relaxing better in the air without it.

So the question is, are you saying they shouldn't skydive because of depression or lack of relaxation skills?

On a side note, I also went through a depression last year, and I kept jumping the whole time. It was a bad depression, but as opposed to the "he's jumping so he can off himself" theory, jumping was what kept me happy/sane. Keep that in mind.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[Tonto 1]

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So the question is, are you saying they shouldn't skydive because of depression or lack of relaxation skills?

I'm not saying anything. I asked a question because I had no answer or experience in this field.
I'm a little disapointed by the extreme responses from both sides of the fence on this one.

The student in question is no different from 100's of others I've trained, and is in this position simply because of his honesty and a desire to solve whatever problems he has. Sure, he gets a little tense in the door. That happened to me too as a student, and at the World Meet 1000's of dives later.

I think this is between him and his doctor. If the doc thinks its OK, I don't see a problem teaching him.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[WrongWay 0]

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The student in question is no different from 100's of others I've trained, and is in this position simply because of his honesty and a desire to solve whatever problems he has. Sure, he gets a little tense in the door. That happened to me too as a student, and at the World Meet 1000's of dives later.

Then you just answered your own question.
I think you should keep going with him. I'm not telling you what to do of course, but if it were me, I'd carry on with it after what you just said.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.