should dz make tandem mandatory first jump?

[freeryde13 0]

quick question..... should drop zones make first time jumpers do tandems. my first jump they wanted mme to do a tandem. i'm sure it's a safe way to go. but i was terified to do it. i wanted control of my own life, instead of trusting a guy i don't know anything about. i know a lot of people feel safer to make a first jump with an experienced diver. i feel people should be given a choice. whats your dz's polocy on that....just curious as i'm trying to recruit new blood, and feel like some of my friends are better off with aff, and others with tandem, but i don't think my closest drop zone allows aff only.

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[Kimblair13 0]

tandem is cheaper most places and is the best way to go if your not wanting to start skydiving a lot. doing the whole class for aff is a waste if you just wanna jump once. to me it is better to do tandem first cuz then you'll know if you'll like it and wether or not you'll freak out up there. most my friends just do tanems over and over cuz it's funner for them to just think they're on a ride. same time i have other friends that are homo-phobic and don't want a dude strapped to their ass. we have no current female TM so i tell them to wait til i'm one :)

[atsaubrey 0]

I recommend a tandem jump before aff. It would help with the sensory overload thing and make the aff jump more enjoyable. Now if all DZ's required it, I would never to this day be in the air. It is a matter of choice, but tandems have a benefit in my opinion, but it should be a choice.
my $0.02

"GOT LEAD?"

[quade 4]

No.

If you -want- to make a tandem first, fine. If the DZ -recommends- a tandem first, fine as long as the customer can choose otherwise. However, mandatory tandems as a first jump are a rip off.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Unstable 9]

This is just me, but to Require a Tandem as your first jump, Especially Since My DZ trains people on Static Line, is not a very practical way to train a skydiver and run a business.

=========Shaun ==========

[cornishe 0]

no... fuck no. People need a choice. It obvious that AFF is completely safe. Why take away that option? For added saftey? How far shall we take it... 3-parachute system and mandatory Tandem Hop'n'Pops for first-timers?

I did AFF right away not because I was sure I was going to continue with this sport, but because that's what sparked my interested. There's many people like me, and we don't like to sit in the passenger's seat.

And no, I am not one of those guys that have a deathwish. I belive neither extreme is good. One way you die quick, the other you never live.


Cheers,
A

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[nightjumps 1]

Quote

My DZ trains people on Static Line, is not a very practical way to train a skydiver and run a business.

Actually it is a very practical way. Why invest 8 hours in someone's ground training when 1 out of 100 walk away after the first jump, another 1 in 100 the second jump, but if you get them to make the third jump and then do the FJC, by then you know the time invested is worth it.

Those DZs that are implementing the AFP are actually seeing that it is more efficient in processes and as high a graduation ratio as AFF (some even higher). That's why they are making it mandatory.

I'll quote, "If the tandem progression method had come along before AFF, there would be no AFF.

[quade 4]

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Why invest 8 hours in someone's ground training when 1 out of 100 walk away after the first jump, another 1 in 100 the second jump, but if you get them to make the third jump and then do the FJC, by then you know the time invested is worth it.

And what if a person knows from before day one that this will be something they'll be doing for quite some time. What if that person is already comfortable with aviation and doesn't want to go through the extra tandem jump(s)? What purpose do they serve that person?

I believe your quote "If the tandem progression method had come along before AFF, there would be no AFF. " really only applies to the financial benefits with regards to DZ operations and not the benefit to real students.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ltdiver 3]

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What if that person is already comfortable with aviation and doesn't want to go through the extra tandem jump(s)? What purpose do they serve that person?

True.

One of the most interesting FJC's I taught was attended by the highest level person (jet fighter pilot from France) and the lowest (complete wuffo who's grasp of the English language was scattered at best).

The pilot wanted to just do one Level I skydive to get to know how to handle a parachute in case he needed to fly one down after deployment from an disabled jet. The 'wuffo' just wanted a joy ride.

Guess who got the tandem? And guess who got the pilot chute hesitation and handled it just the way a very experienced aviator should.

What an interesting day. Some could do with a one hour FJC. Others need to be shown the door.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Unstable 9]

Quote

I'll quote, "If the tandem progression method had come along before AFF, there would be no AFF.

True True True - I agree 110%, but sadly a lot of Single Cessna DZ's just don't have those resources available....

=========Shaun ==========

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

IF a DZ uses only AFP or ISP they are required to do tandem for the first couple of jumps. This has been discussed a thousand times, and to this day I still feel tandem is the best way to go since you have no idea how that person will react in the air on their own.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Shark 0]

Quote

IF a DZ uses only AFP or ISP they are required to do tandem for the first couple of jumps. This has been discussed a thousand times, and to this day I still feel tandem is the best way to go since you have no idea how that person will react in the air on their own.

Exactly, so why make them do a tandem? Your assuming they'll fuck up.

Try taking your best friend's wife on her Level 1 jump while he's on the plane. Talk about pressure. His wife had one of the best exits and I only gave her two signals; a thumbs up on the first COA and another thumbs up on the second. Yeah, totally unexpected.

At the end of the FJC we give students the option of a training tandem. Some take it, while some don't and some we strongly recommend.

One thing we should make madatory is tunnel time before level 3. But that's another debate.

[JoeyRamone 0]

No. A person could have way too many things gone wrong, brain lock for starters, that can kill you. What is brain lock, in my words, you freeze from fear and do not know how to react, and then you die.




A tandem is the best way for a person to see if they like skydive or not, many people want to jump until that door opens at 12,000 feet, then fear sets in, if you have no fear the first time, none at I, I can bet I will be reading about you in the incident section down the read...This is my opinion too. They have tandems in place for a reason, it is not about making money on you, and some people think that way. A tandem jump is the best way any person can experience a skydive with out having to do anything. Enjoy the ride and make your decisions from that point forward.

[tombuch 0]

I like using a tandem as a first jump experience. It is the quickest and easiest way to try the sport. If that first jump is done as a real training jump it can provide tons of good knowledge, that makes the AFF first jump course a more efficient learning session.

With that said, I think a tandem should be strongly encouraged by a drop zone, but I also think AFF should be an option as a first jump. That's good customer service. If you are looking for an alternate drop zone in the New York area check out the USPA drop zone locator at http://www.uspa.org/dz/index.htm

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[smellysue 0]

i would never of jumped if i was strapped to another person i want to control my own life and if i mess up then it's down to me it doesnt matter how much experiance the instructor has any thing could happen including andoing safely wihch is more than likely but personnaly i liketo be in control scos then there's no one else to blame but me..

Go to another DZ and do it there Peterlee wont meke u do tandom 1st jump they let it be ur choice.
it's your money your life you do as you choose not what others choose for you.

[ladyskydiver 0]

I disagree. My first jump was AFF. My original goal: Go up. Make 1 (count 'em 1 ) skydive. Land safely. Cross skydiving off of my list of things to do before I die. Go on to next item on list.

Now, I had no clue that I would love skydiving. But, when I was looking into it, I looked at a tandem and AFF and decided AFF. Why? Because, if I was going to experience skydiving, I wanted it to be as close of a true skydiving experience as possible, and I did not feel that a tandem would give me that experience. I, also, did not want to rely on someone else saving my life. If I was going to go in (and it was a momentary thought when I was preparing to throw myself out of a plane at the ground), I wanted to know that I did everything possible to save my life - and not worry that someone else may not do something right (the whole perceived control or lack thereof issue ).

I did not do a tandem until my 12th jump and have done a total of 3 tandems. 2 of them were recurrency ones for friends of mine, and 1 was because I couldn't try and talk someone into doing a tandem if I hadn't done one. There are certain people that if I were able to talk them into trying out skydiving, I would recommend a tandem...there are others that I would recommend AFF.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[packerboy 3]

I don't believe that you are relying any less on someone else to save your life when you are doing an AFF than when you are doing a tandem. Taking the malfunction situation aside, you just have different attachment points... TI's hands on your rig instead of clips that can hold 5'000lbs of force. He (or she) is there to make sure you open your parachute. Maybe you can, maybe you can't... you won't know untill you try it. But you are still relying on your TI to open your parachute if you can't handle the situation.

So what... some dropzones allow tandem passenger to pull the drogue release. But at least if you can't pull the drogue release, the instructor is strapped to you securely and WILL open the parachute no matter what. There have been recent threads about "busy" AFF dives in the incidents forum. Read them, this could be you. You or the instructor doesn't have a clue how you will accept the sensory overload.

Wether or not you want to "have control of your own life" tandem is just plain safer for everyone involved, cut and dry, black and white, 1 and 0.

Your AFF instructor is risking his (or her) life much more to take you on a AFF FJ than a tandem. Unnecessarily in my opinion.

What if you know that this is something that you want to do many times and for a long time? Well, than you will quickly find out that $250 or $200 or whatever you pay for a tandem... ain't exactly a whole lot of money in the skydiving world.. sure once you are experienced, it is 10 or 15 jumps instead of one, but who cares when you have 5,645 jumps instead of 5,630. Borrow an altimeter untill you can convince someone to give you one for a birthday or Christmas to make up for the "huge" amount of money you "wasted".

Sorry about my rant, but I am very convinced that tandem is the safest way available to make a first skydive. And since we have the technology and resources to make things safer for everyone, then why should we not implement them?

For those who started AFF instead of tandem. I felt the same way, was forced to do a tandem, didn't give a shit because I wanted to skydive, and had a fucking blast and got an awesome video. Get a video of your first AFF and you just look goofy with some other guys taking up most of the frame, holding your hand and showing you what to do like you are in line at kindergarten on your first day of school.

Then you have the question of FJ mals. Baglock? PC in tow? Horeshoe? Line over? Never seen a good canopy above your head before..... I'm not even going to go there.

But the dropzones shouldn't force you to make more than 1.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[nightjumps 1]

Quote

If that first jump is done as a real training jump it can provide tons of good knowledge, that makes the AFF first jump course a more efficient learning session.

You make it sound as if the AFP program is one tandem jump "as a real training jump" rather than an instructional method of progression unto itself.

[DanglesOZQld 0]

No: (1) "MADE" to do.......please!

Good training outweighs doing a Tandem jump first in my opinion. If I had not seen the number of students go through our course I would at first have agreed to the Tandem first principle. Also I gained my jumping licence by first doing a Static line course as opposed to an AFF course. Of Course, pardon the pun!, I believe that aff is the only way to go but it is always good to have an alternative. To me a "first jump mandatory" tandem is only going to feed the tandem mills and is not as good as an aff taught well on the ground! Making a tandem mandatory on the first jump would suit the dz's that rush the training and make the rest look bad however!!! BSBD!! -Dangles.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[DanglesOZQld 0]

1 in 100 etc etc , not in Australia!!
Anyway the retained numbers should have NOTHING to do with the way you train new jumpers!! -BSBD -Dangles

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[riggerrob 643]

... It obvious that AFF is completely safe. ...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Clearly you are not a freefall instructor.
Over the last 22 years I have taught in all the different disciplines and find first jump freefall to be the most stressful and dangerous.
Heck, back when I started instructing, static-lines and military surplus rounds were the only option for students.
Over the years I added all the other ratings but the longer I teach, the more I am convinced that tandem is the best way to start skydiving.
Frankly, 1/3 of my tandem students are so clueless, unfit, etc. they should never be allowed out of an airplane on their own.

As for the homophobes ... We have FUN with the homophobes, teasing them unmercifully!!!
Hah! Hah! Hah!

There are two opposing trends in skydiving instruction in Canada. One trend says that students should do first jump freefall. Since pay rates are terrible, I want nothing to do with that program.
The other trend says start with tandem, then transition to instructor-assisted freefall. I will be glad when my DZO adopts the second option.

Rob Warner
USAP & CSPA static-line instructor
USP & CSPA IAD instructor
Tandem instructor ratings from 3 manufacturers
PFF Instructor
FAA Master Rigger
retired jump pilot
aspiring freefall videographer
and grumpy old fart

[quade 4]

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Since pay rates are terrible, I want nothing to do with that program.

Quite the mercenary . . .

Instruction should have nothing to do with profit motives.

IF you want to make the most money, don't offer instruction at all, simply set up a tandem mill like some jackass did in Las Vegas.

IF you are interested in teaching people, then find the best method for the individual.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cornishe 0]

Quote

No. A person could have way too many things gone wrong, brain lock for starters, that can kill you. What is brain lock, in my words, you freeze from fear and do not know how to react, and then you die.

You've failed to mention that in order to die, the 2 AFF instructors need to fail at both recognizing a students abilities and their duties in the air to keep the student safe. Furthermore, the AAD on the student rig would have to fail. After deployment if there was complete radio failure or the student was passed out/"brain-locked"/whatever, he'd receive a broken leg at WORST under giant student canopy.

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[cornishe 0]

Yeah right... and we should make sure all kids where helmets, kneepads, and wristguards while crossing the street.

I'm sure there's a skydiving video game we can make mandatory too, before the first tandem.

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[betzilla 56]

I think it really depends on what the student program is like. I was a static-line student, so it wouldn't have made any sense for me to have been required to do a tandem first. Plus, i would've been totally overwhelmed by the experience, and probably never jumped again...

I don't think it's a bad idea for AFF programs to require a tandem first, if the tandem is used as an instructional jump, and not just a carnival ride. A student will have more confidence on his/her first solo if they've deployed a canopy in freefall before (on that tandem), and flown a pattern before.

Just my 2 cents -- there are lots of methods that work to produce good, safe jumpers.

-B