slug 1 #26 May 28, 2004 QuoteSpeakers Corner!! Hi DenREn Sorry but I have to agree with you. Most sensiable thing I read in this whole thread But the moderator is the only one that can do that so it won't happen (read his posts the green one). Look at the stats on the hits in speakers corner. So here it stays but at least I don't have to read the thread even in the Bonfire. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #27 May 28, 2004 Quote The DZO was voted to the BOD by the USPA membership. IMO that speaks for itself. As -I- remember it, he was voted in as the result of an internet campaign from over at rec.skydiving as a kind of F-U because some twit, not the actual DZO mind you, was being a total a-hole and thought he knew how to run the USPA, so he got the DZO involved as a write-in candidate. He thought he would have some sort of sway with the DZO that was elected. Fortunately, he didn't, but we still ended up with this really weird BoD member situation. BTW, I hold no ill will to -any- non group member drop zone -- including the one owned by this BoD member. What pisses me off is the idea that they are "entitled" to some sort of USPA benefits when they do not contribute or take the pledge.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #28 May 28, 2004 Quote Look at the stats on the hits in speakers corner. So here it stays but at least I don't have to read the thread even in the Bonfire. Really? I guess you don't know me as well as you think you do. This IS a legitimate topic of discussion for and about skydivers. It doesn't belong in Speakers.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #29 May 28, 2004 Well I have been Jumping for less then a year and I KNOW who you are talking about. I suspect that more people know then you might think. It seemed really odd to me that he would be on the BoD and his drop zone wasn't a group member. I believe I know what people perceive to be the reasons why. I am barely starting to grasp all the knowledge I have gained from dropzone.com. I highly doubt that any skydiver with less then several years in the sport who does not visit here would have much of a clue to what the USPA does and the politics that are involved. Personally I don't think many would ever even care as long as they get to fly. I jump where I do because of their saftey record. I had no clue what a USPA GM was nor did I care. I did care about the fact that they have had 0 fatillitys since the day they opened and I knew that wasn't the case at the other DZ here. Both by the way are GM's. I am not saying one is safer then the other just that as someone looking to get into the sport I already knew that one had people go in and the other didn't. That was the deciding factor for ME... MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #30 May 28, 2004 Yeah, except -just- the numbers of fatalities don't really show the whole truth. My home DZ is a -very large- drop zone. Since I began skydiving, several people have died. Some I've known personally. Contrast this to a small drop zone where, it's actually possible to go your entire skydiving career without having a single fatality. Which drop zone is safer? The answer can't be determined by looking just at the total number of people that have died at the facility.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #31 May 28, 2004 Group membership status and safety are wholly unrelated topics. Asking if group member DZs are safer is like asking if gray cars have better transmissions. As for the topic drift later in this thread, it's absurd. Rating courses are *supposed* to be a benefit of individual membership, not group membership. I'm currently in the process of trying to give an instructional rating course for a couple guys who want their IAD ratings. I called USPA to find out how far in advance I have to notify them (i.e. could I do it the following weekend) and was told "One day, day of, whatever, we just need to know beforehand...as long as it's at a group member dropzone." Now given that myself and the two candidates are USPA members (and instructors for that matter), why should the group membership status of whatever DZ we do it at have any impact on the scheduling? Also, if we were to do it at a non-group member DZ, why should those two guys have to pay a penalty of $200 apiece in order to attend a rating course that would be EXACTLY the same in terms of content if I held it at a group member DZ? One last thing. Mike Mullins is a fucking excellent BOD member who's there to support skydivers, not to try and sway policy for the benefit of his DZ, or get an inside track on Nationals, or anything like that. We need more people like him and Gary Peek on the BOD, not fewer. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #32 May 28, 2004 QuoteLemme ask you this, as a skydiver concerned about safety, what did -you personally- do about it? Did you keep skydiving there on that day? Did you speak with the DZO, Chief Pilot, Instructors, S&TA or call or write the USPA Headquarters? Go ahead speak up. I did and all it did is get me banned from the DZ. Jumpers at the DZ would defend it while at the same time admiting I was correct. I brought BSR violations up to the RD and they didn't do anything. The fox is guarding the hen-house. QuoteBTW, I hold no ill will to -any- non group member drop zone -- including the one owned by this BoD member. What pisses me off is the idea that they are "entitled" to some sort of USPA benefits when they do not contribute or take the pledge. I might agree with you if the 'pledge' actually meant anything. As was already mentioned there are non GM DZ's that are safer than some GM DZ's. The 'pledge' isn't worth anything because if a DZ chooses to break that pledge, oh well. Send in your GM dues and you'll still be a USPA GM DZ next year. USPA does what it is toild to do by DZO's. If anyone believes a DZ's advertising that "We follow all USPA BSR's" is kidding themselves. None do. There is a perception that USPA is keeping tabs on DZ's and making sure the BSR's are followed, etc. They do nothibng of the sort. "Self-regulation" means "do whatever you want and if you are OK with it, drive on." When BSR's stand in the way of money, what do you think wins? USPA claims to be an orginazation for skydivers, but their motto is "What is good for DZ's is good for skydivers" USPA is a DZ organization that promots itself as a skydiver organization to get skydivers to pay for it. And skydiver buy it. What a scam. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyRock 0 #33 May 28, 2004 QuoteSpeakers Corner!! BS!!!!!!! QuoteThis IS a legitimate topic of discussion for and about skydivers. It doesn't belong in Speakers. I TOTALLY agree. and, if you love the sport of skydiving, why not pay attention to the "politics" of it?? -Seth :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #34 May 28, 2004 Paul, I think you are showing your age Mike Mullins was a write in canidate in the '99 election but was actually on the ballet in the '02 election. He got enough signatures to be on the ballet an recieved more votes then 2/3's the other people. The Current ND's are 2 DZO's, 3 LO's (2 in Cali), and one person that is a rating course examiner in everything I think and I'm not sure the others off the top of my head. 5 RD's are DZO's. Talk about making sure that the fun jumper is represented! Fun jumpers don't have the needed popularity to get the votes unless they get out a lot. DZO's usually get everyone from their DZ's votes since everyone there knows them and votes based on name. I think the only reason Mike Ortiz was elected years ago was he had a name a lot of people knew. Next year is elections again... get out and vote them off if you don't like the person. Mullins, Djan, and Gary are exactly what is needed on the BOD. Can anyone tell me Glenn Bangs stance on manditory AAD's? How about Djan's stance on the ISP (easy one since she posts here)? Mike's stance on wingloading? There used to be a really nice weekly email that Dave did on Rec. that asked all the BOD members a question and then posted their answer a few weeks later after they had tim to resond to get their view point out to the members. I have'nt been on Rec. in ages so I don't know if this is still going on... but it needs to be posted on USPA's site if it is. In responce to the earlier questions I had a big reply typed up but the proxy ate work ate it. I walked off the DZ with the beer. I sit on the ground and wait for loads that are light at the one DZ and with the AFF students... I figure having to take 3-4 people and get the girl down from the tree that she was blown into probally made the DZO's radar scope since he was standing there watching her get blown backwards. All the incidents occured outside my region so my RD can't help.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #35 May 28, 2004 Hmmm, well, that's not the treatment I've gotten when I bring things up to management or the USPA officials I've talked with. I have the good fortune of knowing a few and I can assure you that if there was drinkning on the ride to altitude, they'd do something about it.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #36 May 28, 2004 QuoteUSPA is a DZ organization that promots itself as a skydiver organization to get skydivers to pay for it. And skydiver buy it. What a scam. I agree. However it hasn't always been this way and it would be quite easy for skydivers to take the reins back, if we were motivated en masse. Unfortunately that seems less and less likely these days. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mustard 0 #37 May 28, 2004 QuoteCan anyone tell me Glenn Bangs stance on manditory AAD's? How about Djan's stance on the ISP (easy one since she posts here)? Mike's stance on wingloading? Hey Phree, I can' tell you Glenn's take on mandatory AADs or Mike's on wingloading, and I've been on the board for a year and a half now! I can tell you what each one of the S&T members think about these things, because we discuss them in committee. And I can't tell you a thing about Competition, because I don't go to their committee meetings. But the ISP: I think it's a big step ahead of what was there prior to it: not much. It's not perfect, but I am really glad we have something to perfect -- it was wanting to have a say in the direction of safety and training that caused me to decide to run for the BOD. One thing more: I think the A license proficiency card, which came out of the ISP, is teaching people how to be better skydivers earlier. I sure wish I had something like that 13 years ago, maybe I wouldn't have busted myself up so bad on landing in 2000. Anyway, there needs to be more people interested in running for the BOD and getting involved. Otherwise nothing will change. It's sad that we have so few skydivers who even bother to vote for NDs and their RD. Apathy rules, but it doesn't have to continue. *** DJan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #38 May 28, 2004 QuoteBS!!!!!!! this thread started in the Bonfire.......and it did not belong there....hence the plea to have it moved to speakers corner....however Quade pointed out that it would be best moved here....and I agree....and so it has........chill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #39 May 28, 2004 Posted in the May Parachutist by Chris Needles, and I quote: "Each jump with a coach will cost more than a solo, but in the long run it will save money, because jumps won't be WASTED on failed attempts to advance." Since when is ANY jump a wasted jump? You learn something new on each and every skydive and it does not matter how many skydives you have. This arrogant statement shows what is wrong with USPA and the attitudes they have. I remember the days when you paid extra for gear rental and instruction but once you were off student statis the experienced jumpers would jump with you , "coach" you and they did not expect anything in return. Now at USPA GM dz's experienced jumpers with a "rating" will not skydive with you unless they get paid. I have recently witnessed a skydiver with almost 100 jumps pay a coach to jump with him. I would have done it for free. I would have PAID to do it! If you can find a sucker to pay for your jumps then shame on you, I just can't believe USPA sanctions this. This is not the way I was treated when I was a pup and it sickens me to see it happen now. When USPA changed the title from jumpmaster to coach the question was "what is the difference?" A: Coaches get paid, jumpmasters have to pay for their slot on the load. Sorry if I posted this on the wrong forum, you have so many to choose from. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #40 May 29, 2004 QuoteGroup membership status and safety are wholly unrelated topics. Asking if group member DZs are safer is like asking if gray cars have better transmissions. As for the topic drift later in this thread, it's absurd. Rating courses are *supposed* to be a benefit of individual membership, not group membership. I'm currently in the process of trying to give an instructional rating course for a couple guys who want their IAD ratings. I called USPA to find out how far in advance I have to notify them (i.e. could I do it the following weekend) and was told "One day, day of, whatever, we just need to know beforehand...as long as it's at a group member dropzone." Now given that myself and the two candidates are USPA members (and instructors for that matter), why should the group membership status of whatever DZ we do it at have any impact on the scheduling? Also, if we were to do it at a non-group member DZ, why should those two guys have to pay a penalty of $200 apiece in order to attend a rating course that would be EXACTLY the same in terms of content if I held it at a group member DZ? One last thing. Mike Mullins is a fucking excellent BOD member who's there to support skydivers, not to try and sway policy for the benefit of his DZ, or get an inside track on Nationals, or anything like that. We need more people like him and Gary Peek on the BOD, not fewer. Well said Dave. I couldn't agree with you more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TitaniumLegs 8 #41 May 29, 2004 I wasn't going to bother with this thread, but I need to point out a couple things you're missing or ignoring, probably because of a preconceived notion. You're right that no (or few) jumps are really wasted. But it IS true that it is more cost-effective do to a smaller number of coach jumps than to go up and mess around on solos or with just anybody who will jump with you. QuoteNow at USPA GM dz's experienced jumpers with a "rating" will not skydive with you unless they get paid. I jump at a USPA DZ. I am an AFF/I. I get paid for a fraction of the coach jumps I do. Quote This is not the way I was treated when I was a pup and it sickens me to see it happen now. It's exactly how I was treated, except that it was non-rated coaches, rated instructors, or Skydive U (or similar) taking the money. USPA didn't create the phenomenon. Of course, there were some willing to do it for slot or less, but there were many more wanting coaching than those willing to provide it. Why do I coach so much for free? I figure eventually this person will be a decent skydiver and I'll have another friend to play with. My definition of wasted jumps: That new friend leaves the sport for whatever reason. The jumps (my time, use of my equipment and money out of my pocket) to get this guy up to speed are wasted if he never jumps again. On rare occasion, one of them will surpass me and really achieve something in the sport. I think this is the motivation for people who coach children in softball, soccer or whatever. Look at the front cover of this month's Skydiving, and you'll see somebody I taught to jump doing it better. Pretty rare. What USPA is trying to do is create a national minimum standard. Skydive U isn't everywhere. I've seen guys with minimal jumps and dubious skill offering coach jumps to people with only slightly less skill and experience, like a guy with 13 jumps thinking he was qualified to "coach" his wife fresh off her AFF. The USPA "minimum standard", both ISP/A-license card and coaches are ***OPTIONAL***. The ISP is suggested, but you can use another program. An S&TA can waive anybody to be a coach. This allows DZs with their own (presumably better) program to continue to use it. It allows people who have the skill, experience, attitude and deisre to continue to provide coaching without paying an AFF/I (possibly with less experience) to go through the coach rating course. If it costs 3 times as much for a proper coach jump vs. solo, you will learn more that way per dollar and per jump, because you will easily learn more than three times as much on a coach jump. The other thing I find ... selfish? arrogant? ... about "coach jumps should be free" is that this attitude basically implies that I should scratch off loads with my friends who actually can skydive, in which I would be challenged and have fun cranking points so I can pay for my own slot, pack job, etc. to I can teach somebody else to be able to participate in those same loads while I train the next guy. I invested my own time and money to get to this level. I should be allowed to at least break even when I pass on the lessons. How many instructors or teachers in other sports, or any activity for that matter do it all for free? Why is my wife paying so much for coaching at 24-Hour Fitness? Why did I pay for ski coaching? Should that be free? (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #42 May 29, 2004 QuoteQuote The DZO was voted to the BOD by the USPA membership. IMO that speaks for itself. "As -I- remember it, he was voted in as the result of an internet campaign from over at rec.skydiving" Quade I have no ill will to you, USPA etc however IMO "as I remember it" is nothing more than a rumor. One person suggested this thread be moved to speakers corner and now it somehow got moved to General skydiving discussions. This websight is HH's house and he can do what he wants in his house. I'll just move to a different room. Im my world the issue is closed. I hope we can agree that we disagree and leave it at that, like adults. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peckerhead 0 #43 May 29, 2004 You have proven my point. You want to get paid for a friggin two-way. Students SHOULD pay extra for supervision and gear. After they are off student statis (A license) They should get their more experienced brothers and sisters help and advice without having to buy their jump. It is called selfishness and it is a serious problem. I have no problem scratching off a big way to go jump with a novice. In fact I enjoy it. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #44 May 29, 2004 No rumor. Fact. At least one other person here even remembers it pretty much the same way as I had briefly described. Ya wanna talk about rumors? Let's not go there in a public forum. BTW, -I- moved the thread to this forum. Yes, I have HH's permission & privileges to put threads where I see fit that they belong. As for ill will -- this is simply a discussion. People are airing their viewpoints. Even the people I have -extremely- heated discussions with here, I am happy to associate and jump with at any time. If you're ever in Perris, look me up and we can talk about things over a beer we can't talk about in the highly charged world of the internet. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TitaniumLegs 8 #45 May 29, 2004 Quote You want to get paid for a friggin two-way. No, I want to break even. I don't want it to COST me. There's a difference. How many ski instructors pay their own lift tickets? In this sport, I'm at greater risk that some beginner spud will kill me. A couple weeks ago, I jumped with a guy who learned from just any-old-body like you suggest, and he decided it was cool to go on his back in the middle of a formation and drop below us, cause that's what he was taught by his buddies. So, let's take this all the way your way. So you think the pro RW jumpers, freeflyers, birdmen, surfers should coach for free, or really, at their own expense? Where do you draw the line? Quote I have no problem scratching off a big way to go jump with a novice. In fact I enjoy it. Around here, you would never do RW again - too many people would take all your time and money on free coach jumps. (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peckerhead 0 #46 May 29, 2004 5% voted What? The majority does not feel any safer at GM drop zones. What does that say? . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peckerhead 0 #47 May 29, 2004 Once again you have proven my point. Skydiving is not skiing. I was a professional ski patroller for ten years. I learned to ski when I was a kid... I would pay extra for a helicopter ride and a guide but I would never pay a buddy to go ski with me for a day... "Hey you buy my lift ticket and I will give you some advice" Yeah, sure no problem....... Buy your own ticket dude! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peckerhead 0 #48 May 29, 2004 PS. if any of my skiing buddies ever asked to have his lift ticket paid for we would just laugh in his face. Chew on that one Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TitaniumLegs 8 #49 May 29, 2004 How about if somebody you didn't know, who knew how to ski, but wanted to spend a day or half day working on technique asked you or your buddy to spend the day teaching them? How about if that was all you did, so you couldn't go off in the powder, or go full-tilt down the double diamonds, or cliffs and chutes, cause you gotta get this one-season wonder to quit snowplowing and turn the boards? We're not talking about charging our friends. I don't even charge friends for AFF. I've even done free AFF (as in I paid my slot) for friends of friends. We're talking about breaking even when it's somebody we don't know, who may eventually become a friend, but that could apply skiing, too. Not hard to chew on it when you don't confuse the issues. (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #50 May 29, 2004 Ya know what, I've been thinking about this for quite some time and I've come to the conclusion that times have changed. Not for the better, not for the worse -- simply changed. It doesn't matter how things were -- it matters how things are. You can't go back in time. I'm not saying it's right or wrong -- simply the way things are. If you want to be an instrument of change -- then be an instrument of change. Don't whine about how it was in "the good old days" because they simply no longer exist. Go get whatever qualifications you need to do the thing and then go do it. Get the Coach rating, strike a deal with the DZO for you to give free coaching to newbies. Sell it as passing along your wisdom and knowledge to the newbies, but for God's sake don't sell it as "this is the way we did it in the good old days", because I'll bet you a bag of donuts it really isn't. I think you can either live in the past or join the rest of us in the present.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 2 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
peckerhead 0 #43 May 29, 2004 You have proven my point. You want to get paid for a friggin two-way. Students SHOULD pay extra for supervision and gear. After they are off student statis (A license) They should get their more experienced brothers and sisters help and advice without having to buy their jump. It is called selfishness and it is a serious problem. I have no problem scratching off a big way to go jump with a novice. In fact I enjoy it. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #44 May 29, 2004 No rumor. Fact. At least one other person here even remembers it pretty much the same way as I had briefly described. Ya wanna talk about rumors? Let's not go there in a public forum. BTW, -I- moved the thread to this forum. Yes, I have HH's permission & privileges to put threads where I see fit that they belong. As for ill will -- this is simply a discussion. People are airing their viewpoints. Even the people I have -extremely- heated discussions with here, I am happy to associate and jump with at any time. If you're ever in Perris, look me up and we can talk about things over a beer we can't talk about in the highly charged world of the internet. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TitaniumLegs 8 #45 May 29, 2004 Quote You want to get paid for a friggin two-way. No, I want to break even. I don't want it to COST me. There's a difference. How many ski instructors pay their own lift tickets? In this sport, I'm at greater risk that some beginner spud will kill me. A couple weeks ago, I jumped with a guy who learned from just any-old-body like you suggest, and he decided it was cool to go on his back in the middle of a formation and drop below us, cause that's what he was taught by his buddies. So, let's take this all the way your way. So you think the pro RW jumpers, freeflyers, birdmen, surfers should coach for free, or really, at their own expense? Where do you draw the line? Quote I have no problem scratching off a big way to go jump with a novice. In fact I enjoy it. Around here, you would never do RW again - too many people would take all your time and money on free coach jumps. (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #46 May 29, 2004 5% voted What? The majority does not feel any safer at GM drop zones. What does that say? . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #47 May 29, 2004 Once again you have proven my point. Skydiving is not skiing. I was a professional ski patroller for ten years. I learned to ski when I was a kid... I would pay extra for a helicopter ride and a guide but I would never pay a buddy to go ski with me for a day... "Hey you buy my lift ticket and I will give you some advice" Yeah, sure no problem....... Buy your own ticket dude! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #48 May 29, 2004 PS. if any of my skiing buddies ever asked to have his lift ticket paid for we would just laugh in his face. Chew on that one Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TitaniumLegs 8 #49 May 29, 2004 How about if somebody you didn't know, who knew how to ski, but wanted to spend a day or half day working on technique asked you or your buddy to spend the day teaching them? How about if that was all you did, so you couldn't go off in the powder, or go full-tilt down the double diamonds, or cliffs and chutes, cause you gotta get this one-season wonder to quit snowplowing and turn the boards? We're not talking about charging our friends. I don't even charge friends for AFF. I've even done free AFF (as in I paid my slot) for friends of friends. We're talking about breaking even when it's somebody we don't know, who may eventually become a friend, but that could apply skiing, too. Not hard to chew on it when you don't confuse the issues. (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #50 May 29, 2004 Ya know what, I've been thinking about this for quite some time and I've come to the conclusion that times have changed. Not for the better, not for the worse -- simply changed. It doesn't matter how things were -- it matters how things are. You can't go back in time. I'm not saying it's right or wrong -- simply the way things are. If you want to be an instrument of change -- then be an instrument of change. Don't whine about how it was in "the good old days" because they simply no longer exist. Go get whatever qualifications you need to do the thing and then go do it. Get the Coach rating, strike a deal with the DZO for you to give free coaching to newbies. Sell it as passing along your wisdom and knowledge to the newbies, but for God's sake don't sell it as "this is the way we did it in the good old days", because I'll bet you a bag of donuts it really isn't. I think you can either live in the past or join the rest of us in the present.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
