bmcd308 0 #101 June 1, 2004 >>I would be happy if Mike Mullins, paid the GM fee, signed the pledge and did his best to adhere to it. << Would doing his best include taking the rigs off the backs of his kids? If so, then this regular everyday skydiver would lose the benefit of their incredible knowledge about the sport and the benefit of their wisdom having seen tons of stuff go right and wrong on skydives over the years. What benefits would I receive after Mike took the pledge that would replace the ability to share the collective knowledge of his sons? Question predicated on the belief that they would not continue to hang out at the dz all weekend if they could not skydive. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #102 June 1, 2004 Would you vote for a Senator that said the Pledge of Allegiance every day and leaked state secrets to another nation or a Senator that refused to recite it because they objected to the use of the word “God” in it but never leaked state secrets? QuoteI would be happy if Mike Mullins, paid the GM fee, signed the pledge and did his best to adhere to it. I'm neither naive in the ways of the sport nor the FAA. I know that at some point in time a drop zone may unintentionally violate the USPA BSRs which also include the FAA FARs. What I would hope is that they not do so intentionally just for the sake of profit. DZ’s intentionally launch loads when there isn’t a chance in hell that all the jumpers on the load will be able to adhere to the cloud clearance requirements. That is intentionally violating the pledge. I have seen EVERY DZ I have been to intentionally violate the ‘pledge’. Why should Mike sign a pledge if he doesn’t believe in it? *I do need to put a disclaimer in here that I don’t speak for Mike, and am only guessing at his motives, opinions, etc for the sake of argument* I don’t think it is better that someone sign a pledge and sorta follow it. If a Senator recites the Pledge of Allegiance and does a great job, but also leaks state secrets to another nation, the Pledge doesn’t mean squat, even if he did his best to follow it. If being a GM DZ and signing the ‘Pledge’ meant the DZ would be a safer DZ than one that didn’t I would agree with you, but it doesn’t. The ‘pledge’ might as well be the Barney song for all it is worth. I fail to see how his DZ not being a GM affects his appropriateness to be a BOD member. The GM program is optional. He supports USPA through his dues and the dues the jumpers at his DZ pay. He is doing the skydivers a service by not using their dues to supplement his DZ being GM DZ. He is doing the skydivers a service by serving on he BOD. If I were a DZO I would not sign the ‘pledge’ because I know that I could not run a DZ w/o violating it and I wouldn’t want to sign a pledge knowing I was not going to adhere to it. Not to mention I think the USPA GM is a sham. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #103 June 1, 2004 So, what you're telling me is you care more about a couple of non-USPA members than you do about the USPA itself. That's nobel in a certain regard, but if they weren't Mike Mullins' kids, would you give a shit?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #104 June 1, 2004 Interesting. I have been watching and waiting for it to turn this way. Why is it so OK that HIS kids are allowed to jump yet at no time have I seen ANYONE say it is ok for kids to be jumping. So is it ok just for his kids or should every kid in America be allowed to jump? MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #105 June 1, 2004 I think if a person wants to teach his kids to skydive and the person has the knowledge to teach them himself AND the resources to do it, then why the heck not? Of course, it'll have to be done at a drop zone that is NOT a Group Member of the USPA. If you want to talk about the reason why Mike Mullins doesn't take the pledge, my guess is this is the real reason and not some phoney baloney justification that the pledge and the USPA are somehow hypocritical. In the US, however, there is a HUGE problem with liability issues so this is pretty much the ONLY way it could or should be done.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #106 June 1, 2004 QuoteIf you want to talk about the reason why Mike Mullins doesn't take the pledge, my guess is this is the real reason and not some phoney baloney justification that the pledge and the USPA are somehow hypocritical. The 'pledge' wouldn't stop his kids from jumping unless he chose for it to. ame way that the 'pledge' doesn't stop DZ's from violating the BSR's. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #107 June 1, 2004 There is, in my opinion, a huge difference between doing something intentionally and doing it unintentionally. If a drop zone makes an effort to not drop skydivers through clouds but occasionally they do hit one that is one thing. Under age skydiving, on the other hand rarely happens by accident.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #108 June 2, 2004 So what about all the DZ's that will allow aunderage jumping? There is a poster on here that is 16 that I know has jumped at GM DZ's for years and the USPA never cared. Years ago the Nelson's did, the Mullin's, Farringtons, *Insert DZO's kids name here * and the USPA never batted an eye at it. Are those DZ's unsafe since they allowed the kids to jump or are they safe since they are GM's? Lets get to the original question asked... are GM DZ's safer? My experience: 3 Non GM's, 18 GM's and more improptu off DZ demos then I care to count.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #109 June 2, 2004 If you want to go back to the original question, then read my original answer. As for any underage jumping, again, asked and answered.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #110 June 2, 2004 QuoteThese are the good old days, and there are those among us that right now jump with low-timers without any added cost to them. I'll go one better. In the last BOD election, one of the candidates sent me way too much money toward an ad I ran in Skydiving magazine. When I ended up collecting more than needed, I asked him for his address to send the balance back to him. He asked that I please keep it and spend it paying for the slots of newbies I was jumping with. That reminds me...I need to e-mail him and tell him about the slot he bought yesterday. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #111 June 2, 2004 QuoteThe system is broke. The GMDZ's pay how much /yr/ vs the individual members. I think it came out to a cup of cheap coffee/day. Actually it's relatively expensive coffee that I buy each morning, but the additional cost to the individual members to replace ALL funding of the GM program would be less than one cup of that coffee per year. Then again it would be silly to replace ALL the revenues generated by the GM program. Why reimburse for advertising space in Parachutist that could either be a) not printed, or b) sold at market value? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #112 June 2, 2004 QuoteI know that at some point in time a drop zone may unintentionally violate the USPA BSRs which also include the FAA FARs. What I would hope is that they not do so intentionally just for the sake of profit. I seriously doubt Mike has made much of a profit off his sons. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #113 June 2, 2004 QuoteSo, what you're telling me is you care more about a couple of non-USPA members than you do about the USPA itself. No Paul, that's not what he said. You made an amazing leap of logic there that seems to have included USPA not only depending on the GM program for survival, but for the GM program to be dependent on the dues of one or two specific dropzones for its survival. It's entirely possible that a person can support Mike Mullins, his kids, and the USPA, all at the same time. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #114 June 2, 2004 QuoteYa know what, I've been thinking about this for quite some time and I've come to the conclusion that times have changed. Not for the better, not for the worse -- simply changed. It doesn't matter how things were -- it matters how things are. You can't go back in time. I'm not saying it's right or wrong -- simply the way things are. If you want to be an instrument of change -- then be an instrument of change. Don't whine about how it was in "the good old days" because they simply no longer exist. Go get whatever qualifications you need to do the thing and then go do it. Get the Coach rating, strike a deal with the DZO for you to give free coaching to newbies. Sell it as passing along your wisdom and knowledge to the newbies, but for God's sake don't sell it as "this is the way we did it in the good old days", because I'll bet you a bag of donuts it really isn't. I think you can either live in the past or join the rest of us in the present. I like the jelly filled ones :)~ Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #115 June 2, 2004 Never said he did. Wasn't the point of that particular couple of sentances. We had been talking about cloud clearance violations.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #116 June 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote FAA crackdown after the Perris Twin Otter Crash that the majority of the people were not strapped in on and as a result quite a few died. That happened at a GM DZ at the time. Tell the whole story! It was common practice for jumpers to not use seat bealts at the time and still remains so in a very large part of the world. Since the accident the U.S. has become more educated. The accident had nothing to do with GM status. Didn't they sign a PLEDGE to abide by all the rules of the USPA? If so, then it has everything to do with GM status. Just because everyone was doing it doesn't make it right and if they did sign the pledge.... J Nobody wore seatbelts back then and the 'pledge' did not address the issue in any way. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #117 June 2, 2004 Well, your reasons for coaching probably are the same, but the techniques used today are certainly different than what I learned and that wasn't really all that long ago. I maintain that coaching today is different than as few as maybe five years ago. I also maintain that the USPA standards for the coach rating are probably not a bad idea. It at least provides a common ground, whereas ad hoc coaching might only provide a body to fall with and doesn't ensure any standards at all.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyRock 0 #118 June 2, 2004 Quote>>How do you know he voted "the way the skydivers would have wanted him to?"<< I'll take him at his word. I think you missed his point. Hes asking you how do you know he voted what the skydivers wanted when you don't know what the skydivers want/wanted?? I'm not saying he doesn't, but there isn't a poll of all the skydivers/members everytime uspa makes a decision. -Seth :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #119 June 2, 2004 Quote*** [A DZO of a non group member drop zone has, in my opinion, no business being on the BoD. It just doesn't make sense. Well, let me tell you why it makes sense. Well, when you look at why Mullins is on the BOD, you could pretty much blame the BOD. They tried to fuck him. They broke scores of their own rules (while holding up the ones in their favor up like Moses bringing down the ten commandments) and removed him from the list of candidates as being one of the lesser qualified candidates. The Nominations and Election Committee (Bill Wenger, Madolyn Murdock and Lee Schlichtemeier wanted to keep their little shop closed, violated even the most basic priciples of fairness and so outraged the membership, Mike was elected on a write-in vote. They behaved most dishonorably as members of the BOD and as skydivers. For this reason alone, it is most appropriate for Mike to be on the BOD If the BOD (or their hand puppet Nominations committee) had made even the slightest attempt to be fair and impartial, I doubt Mike would ever have been elected. Let me tell you a secret (to you apparently) about USPA ...they're rotten to the core and have been for more than a decade. Here's a quote from Madolyn Murdock's sworn court statement: "I felt that while Mike Mullins is a well known Drop Zone Owner, pilot, and aircraft operator, he does not support the Basic Safety Regulations of the organization. It is well known that he allows his children to skydive. The USPA Basic Safety Regulations require that the minimum age to learn to skydive is 16. If Mr. Mullins disagrees with this policy then he should work to make a change to the regulation. His support and assistance in training his children to skydive does not show support for USPA policies and did not make him a prudent candidate in my opinion." Translation: We got a sweet deal here that benefits us all (not USPA 'US', but BOD 'us') and we're afraid some straight forward, honorable skydiver might upset what we have built for ourselves. The membership was justifiably outraged, Paul. Would you have preferred they just got away with it? Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #120 June 2, 2004 I remember this episode . . . without the general membership outrage. I truely believe most people heard he couldn't get on the ballot but could be elected as a write in and voted for him simply because he has, arguably, the most bitchin' King Air anyone has ever jumped out of -- period. Name recognition via the airplane alone was, I believe, enough to get him elected. Not his views, policies or practices about anything -- just the airplane. Of course, that's just my opinion. We'd have to poll the general membership that voted at the time to know, but that was never done and it certainly wouldn't be valid at this point. The general membership, to my knowledge, has never been outraged enough to lift a finger with the possible exception of the middle one.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TitaniumLegs 8 #121 June 2, 2004 QuoteQuote(Snip the ski coaching vs. skydiving coaching) If you think you are losing something by jumping with a neophyte, and should be paid for your sacrifice, by all means go an do what you would rather be doing. I'm not losing anything but the opportunity to jump with my friends. I'd rather do both, but unfortunately, I can't be in two (or three or more) places at once. I'd love to be doing AFF, coaching, RW, skysurfing and learning to freefly a little better all at the same time, but there are only so many jumps you can do in a day, and the number of days I get to jump is dwindling rapidly. If somebody thinks I should spend all day coaching and forego the rest, first they'll have to convince my wife that I shouldn't be jumping with her at all, and then, yes, at least my slot will be covered. Quote I'll happily jump with the tyro - and pay for my own slot. Coaches and even some organizers get their slots (or more) covered by the jumpers or the DZ (which means by the jumpers indirectly). YOU even get your slot covered at WFFC when you organize. Your slot is taken out of overhead, one of the things paid for by boogie fees and a small slice of the jump tickets. You don't think Don Kirlin pays your slot out of his pocket, do you? What's the difference? And can somebody tell me why it's OK to charge for coaching in other sports, but NOT skydiving? (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crwmike 0 #122 June 2, 2004 [reply And can somebody tell me why it's OK to charge for coaching in other sports, but NOT skydiving? I can't think of a thing to tell you that you would find meaningful. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #120 June 2, 2004 I remember this episode . . . without the general membership outrage. I truely believe most people heard he couldn't get on the ballot but could be elected as a write in and voted for him simply because he has, arguably, the most bitchin' King Air anyone has ever jumped out of -- period. Name recognition via the airplane alone was, I believe, enough to get him elected. Not his views, policies or practices about anything -- just the airplane. Of course, that's just my opinion. We'd have to poll the general membership that voted at the time to know, but that was never done and it certainly wouldn't be valid at this point. The general membership, to my knowledge, has never been outraged enough to lift a finger with the possible exception of the middle one.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TitaniumLegs 8 #121 June 2, 2004 QuoteQuote(Snip the ski coaching vs. skydiving coaching) If you think you are losing something by jumping with a neophyte, and should be paid for your sacrifice, by all means go an do what you would rather be doing. I'm not losing anything but the opportunity to jump with my friends. I'd rather do both, but unfortunately, I can't be in two (or three or more) places at once. I'd love to be doing AFF, coaching, RW, skysurfing and learning to freefly a little better all at the same time, but there are only so many jumps you can do in a day, and the number of days I get to jump is dwindling rapidly. If somebody thinks I should spend all day coaching and forego the rest, first they'll have to convince my wife that I shouldn't be jumping with her at all, and then, yes, at least my slot will be covered. Quote I'll happily jump with the tyro - and pay for my own slot. Coaches and even some organizers get their slots (or more) covered by the jumpers or the DZ (which means by the jumpers indirectly). YOU even get your slot covered at WFFC when you organize. Your slot is taken out of overhead, one of the things paid for by boogie fees and a small slice of the jump tickets. You don't think Don Kirlin pays your slot out of his pocket, do you? What's the difference? And can somebody tell me why it's OK to charge for coaching in other sports, but NOT skydiving? (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #122 June 2, 2004 [reply And can somebody tell me why it's OK to charge for coaching in other sports, but NOT skydiving? I can't think of a thing to tell you that you would find meaningful. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TitaniumLegs 8 #123 June 2, 2004 QuoteI can't think of a thing to tell you that you would find meaningful. Well, why don't you tell me something you think I won't find meaningful, and let's see what happens. (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chriswelker 0 #124 June 2, 2004 Quade, You got to be joking, right? A GM DZ that signs a pledge(you might want to look up the definition of pledge in a WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY OF THE AMERICAN LANGUAGE to help you understand the point.) then brakes that commitment has more respect for the USPA than a DZ that chooses not to follow a clubs rules that it isn't a member of? I have been to many GM DZ's where FAR's and BSR's were broken. Quade maybe next year the GM DZ's will subsidize our indivduel memberships since we have been doing it for them for so long. Chris Welker D-19678 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #125 June 2, 2004 Quote(quoting Madolyn Murdock)"The USPA Basic Safety Regulations require that the minimum age to learn to skydive is 16. If Mr. Mullins disagrees with this policy then he should work to make a change to the regulation. His support and assistance in training his children to skydive does not show support for USPA policies and did not make him a prudent candidate in my opinion." Of course we all know this argument didn't work in Madolyn's favor, given that Roger Nelson and Jessie Farrington WERE on the ballot. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
