USPA group member safer or what?

[jlmiracle 7]

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I think by not taking the pledge and paying dues, it shows disrespect to the organization. Kind of like a Senator not willing to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

What's so freekin' difficult to understand about this?

Derek -- read by FIRST responce to this thread. I believe it's the second post in it, so it should be fairly easy for you to find.

So he should pay up for something he doesn't believe in? That would be just stupid and he would lose all respect from me.

So he should just conform to something he believes doesn't do any good for the jumpers.

What about Jan's endorsement Quade? What about the twit that backed her or yeah and Mike. You are so quick to point fingers and say he's a bad guy cause he won't conform.

I guess you are just one of those people who find it okay for hypocrites to run our little voluntary organization. I don't and never will.

We had a former BoD that was very outspoken and most of that BoD didn't agree with his views BUT, he stood his ground on what HE believed in and that's why we elect a BoD. It seems you want everyone to just conform. Good thing our government doesn't work that way or we would all be screwed.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[pilotdave 0]

I think I'll start my own organization. It'll be devoted to the promotion of camera flyers that pledge to follow my rules and pay my dues. Any camera flyer that doesn't join is disrespecting the organization. Rule number 1 is no camera flyer may use brand cameras. Now pay up! Pay up, or you aren't a safe, devoted camera flyer.

I still don't get it. MAYBE the USPA deserves a little more respect than my organization. But why? (seriously, I really don't know what the benefits of joining the GM program are)

Dave

[quade 4]

Quote

What about Jan's endorsement Quade? What about the twit that backed her or yeah and Mike. You are so quick to point fingers and say he's a bad guy cause he won't conform.

I guess you are just one of those people who find it okay for hypocrites to run our little voluntary organization. I don't and never will.

We had a former BoD that was very outspoken and most of that BoD didn't agree with his views BUT, he stood his ground on what HE believed in and that's why we elect a BoD. It seems you want everyone to just conform. Good thing our government doesn't work that way or we would all be screwed.

It's not about being a conformist or whatever other bullshit you want to distract the conversation with. It's about working within the system.

Try getting a Senator elected that wouldn't say the Pledge or pay his taxes. This is a direct analogy to what I'm talking about.

I find it incredibly difficult to understand why you don't see this.

As for Jan Meyer, what the heck are you going on about? Jan isn't a DZO nor, to -my- knowledge, is she influenced in any way, shape or form by the drop zones she jumps at.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I think by not taking the pledge and paying dues, it shows disrespect to the organization. Kind of like a Senator not willing to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

What's so freekin' difficult to understand about this?

What is difficult is that it is not the Pledge of Allegiance, the USPA GM ‘pledge’ is a hollow pledge. That is the difference. If the pledge actually stood for something and meant something, as the Pledge of Allegiance does, that would be different. It does not show disrespect to the organization, signing the ‘pledge’ and then breaking it, having never had any intention of adhering to it, shows disrespect to the organization and to the ‘pledge’. The ‘pledge’ is only given lip service and used in advertising. Why should Mike compromise his integrity by signing a pledge that no one, nor would he, follow? He has taken it upon himself, as a BOD member, to improve skydiving for the skydiver, not the GM DZO. That shows more character than giving in to a corrupt program.

The ISP benefits the skydiver. It is a better training program and was mandatory. USPA changed it to voluntary because of DZO pressure. So when there was a choice before USPA to choose between benefiting the skydiver or the DZ, skydivers lost. If Mike is trying to change, and I think he is, I applaud his efforts. USPA could use more BOD’s like him, that are for the skydiver, not the GM program, which isn’t.

I assume that you, like me, have broken the FAR concerning cloud clearance minimums before, and that you will again. Would you sign a statement stating that you will adhere to every BSR, which includes adhering to the FAR’s? As part of the statement you will agree that if you do violate the BSR’s/FAR’s, that you will never skydive again?

Derek

[jlmiracle 7]

I'm talking about the Twit you referred to that you claim got Mike elected. If that was really the case, same twit also campaigned for Jan and got her elected. That is what I am talking about.

And so you want him to work within the system. Okay so he ran and got elected to the BoD. He is a member of the USPA. How much more "in the system" does he have to be. He shouldn't be blackmailed or bullied into being a GM DZ or any program he does not believe is in the best benefit of the INDIVIDUAL members of the USPA.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[quade 4]

What -I- am willing to say or do publicly is of no consequence.

-I- am not a representative of the USPA.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhreeZone 20]

Mike is a USPA member in paid status on his dues. That is the only requirement to be elected to the BoD from a $ stand point. Glenn B is making a lot of money on rating courses but I don't see him paying a "membership fee" to run his business. How is that different? Should Larry H have to make the Eloy tunnel get a GM since its a differnt business?


Anyone that is bitching one way or the other You have till the close of business today: http://www.uspa.org/news/images/2004elect_annct.pdf

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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What -I- am willing to say or do publicly is of no consequence.

-I- am not a representative of the USPA.

No, but you are a member. I think you see my point. You wouldn't sign that statement, yet you want Mike to sign a similar statement, except there are no penalties for non-adherence. You won’t pledge not to violate the BSR’s because you know that you will violate them and therefore violate the statement (pledge). You are demonstrating integrity. Why is it a bad thing for Mike to do the same thing? I think it is worse to sing the ‘pledge’, intending to violate it, than to not sign it at all.

Would it be better if he signed it and then violated it?

Just because the USPA GM program is part of USPA does mean it is a good thing and to not support is a disservice to skydivers. I believe the exact opposite. The USPA GM program does not benefit skydivers and by not supporting it, he supports skydivers.

Derek

[quade 4]

I guess we're just going to have different opinions on this.

I can see where you might have a certain loyalty to Mike and that's fine. Loyalty is good. Do you think you'd have the same opinions if you jumped somewhere else? I know others that don't jump at his DZ support him and that's ok too.

It's just not ok for -me- to support him because it goes against my personal values. Is that ok with you?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[slug 1]

Hi Quade

""It's not about being a conformist or whatever other bullshit you want to distract the conversation with. It's about working within the system."

The system is broke. The GMDZ's pay how much /yr/ vs the individual members. I think it came out to a cup of cheap coffee/day. Who's going to fix that? The GMDZ's or their groupies no way.

Check any GMDZ websight and you'll see the USPA stamp of approval in their first page, some even go as far as saying stay away from non GMDZ's due to the danger factor.

The USPA stamp of approval is a gimmick for the tandem.AFF trade that don't know any better. See the poll at the beginning of the thread what experienced jumpers thnk about non USPA DZ's.

Try getting a Senator elected that wouldn't say the Pledge or pay his taxes.

Elected officals get reelected all the time, regardless of their ethic's or morals.

>>I find it incredibly difficult to understand why you don't see this.

[quade 4]

Hmmm, first he calls for shutting the thread down then he askes me a question that demands a responce . . . kind of a mixed message there.

I believe the GMDZ program -should- pay for itself. I believe it would have an easier time doing that if there were -more- Group Member Drop Zones.

I -think- I already responded to the Jan Meyer question, but in all honesty I'm not really sure where you're going with the line of questioning. Could you be more specific about what you think is improper with Jan Meyer being on the BoD?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[slug 1]

Quote

I guess we're just going to have different opinions on this.

I can see where you might have a certain loyalty to Mike and that's fine. Loyalty is good. Do you think you'd have the same opinions if you jumped somewhere else?

Quade IMO your blowing smoke, I have never jumped out of mikes airpplane or met the man but I support him as much as possiable.

The reason I didn't vote for him is because I'm not a USPA member. I have been at a larger GMDZ for a Xmas party and watched the DZO hand out and collect the ballots so they could get reelected.

We're hanging out a lot of dirty laundry. That serves no purpose.

Next question why did the DZ's suddenly start enforcing the seatbelt rule on T.O. or was that befor your time?

If you like I can refresh your memory.

R.I.P.

R.I.P.

[quade 4]

I jump at Perris, Dan BC is a very good friend of mine and I'm a flight instructor. You don't need to tell me anything about FAR 91.107, its history or applicability to skydiving.

Why do you keep changing topics?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[slug 1]

Quote

Hmmm, first he calls for shutting the thread down then he askes me a question that demands a responce . . . kind of a mixed message there.

I believe the GMDZ program -should- pay for itself. I believe it would have an easier time doing that if there were -more- Group Member Drop Zones.

I -think- I already responded to the Jan Meyer question, but in all honesty I'm not really sure where you're going with the line of questioning. Could you be more specific about what you think is improper with Jan Meyer being on the BoD?

Quade your still blowing smoke and trying to put words in my mouth. IMO youur crediabilty is zippo.
But if HH is happy with you thats his business it's his house.

I won't waste my time responding to your statement why the GMDZ's won't pay their fair share of the services they recieve from USPA.

No one has to close this thread for me I'll close it. Have a nice day Don't get dizzy running around in circles or get smoke in you eye's.

R.I.P.

[PhreeZone 20]

>Next question why did the DZ's suddenly start enforcing the seatbelt rule on T.O. or was that befor your time?

FAA crackdown after the Perris Twin Otter Crash that the majority of the people were not strapped in on and as a result quite a few died. That happened at a GM DZ at the time.

Does it bother anyone that the WFFC has been a GM some years but not others? Was it safer since it paid the fees those years? The only reason that Skydive America lost its GM was because they got behind on their fee even though their plane was grounded by the FAA for safety violations.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

I still don't see how you think that a hypocrite that breaks their word and supports a program that does not benefit skydivers is better than someone that maintains their integrity and won't support a bad program that they don't believe in.

Derek

[quade 4]

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FAA crackdown after the Perris Twin Otter Crash that the majority of the people were not strapped in on and as a result quite a few died. That happened at a GM DZ at the time.

Tell the whole story! It was common practice for jumpers to not use seat bealts at the time and still remains so in a very large part of the world.

Since the accident the U.S. has become more educated.

The accident had nothing to do with GM status.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

Quote

FAA crackdown after the Perris Twin Otter Crash that the majority of the people were not strapped in on and as a result quite a few died. That happened at a GM DZ at the time.

Tell the whole story! It was common practice for jumpers to not use seat bealts at the time and still remains so in a very large part of the world.

Since the accident the U.S. has become more educated.

The accident had nothing to do with GM status.

Didn't they sign a PLEDGE to abide by all the rules of the USPA? If so, then it has everything to do with GM status. Just because everyone was doing it doesn't make it right and if they did sign the pledge....

J

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[quade 4]

Could you provide me with a copy of the GM pledge and USPA SIM from that time period?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[bmcd308 0]

>>Hell, we even had a BoD member that was a DZO of a non member drop zone! Figure THAT one out. <<

You mean the one who voted the way the skydivers would have wanted him to?

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www.jumpelvis.com

[slotperfect 7]

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This thread is turning into a pissing contest will someone either move it back to barnfire, speakeers corner, or just lock it.

This is getting embarresing Shut this thread down!

The thread was moved here because this forum is the best fit. Here it stays.

Heated discussions can be healthy and quite productive. They can also turn into self-destructive battles of opposing opinions.

So far so good here, although the temperature seems to be rising rapidly.

Keep it objective, keep it civil, or please take it to the PMs.

Arrive Safely

John

[quade 4]

and another one joins the already overcrowded discussion.

Quote

You mean the one who voted the way the skydivers would have wanted him to?

I was unaware there were all that many roll call votes in the USPA, nor was I aware of any polling data from the general membership.

How do you know he voted "the way the skydivers would have wanted him to?"

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Hooknswoop 19]

Would you be OK w/ Mike being on the BOD if he paid the GM fee, signed the pledge and then violated it?

Derek

[quade 4]

I would be happy if Mike Mullins, paid the GM fee, signed the pledge and did his best to adhere to it.

I'm neither naive in the ways of the sport nor the FAA. I know that at some point in time a drop zone may unintentionally violate the USPA BSRs which also include the FAA FARs. What I would hope is that they not do so intentionally just for the sake of profit.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[bmcd308 0]

>>How do you know he voted "the way the skydivers would have wanted him to?"<<

I'll take him at his word.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com