elfanie 0 #1 January 26, 2004 User Ron, in another thread, made the following comment... "A bigger canopy is safer than a smaller one." I took a canopy control course recently in which I was told flat out that a larger canopy is not always a safer canopy, and that if I felt that flying a larger canopy meant that I was safer that it was a mistaken idea. However...me, with only 51 jumps under my belt...would like to hear from some of the mucho-experienced jumpers. Is bigger safer? And let me make DARN sure to clarify that I'm not saying, "Is a wing loading of 1.8 safer than a wing loading of 2.4?" That is not what I'm asking. What I'm asking is...is bigger always safer. For someone with an exit weight of 170....is a 288 safer than a 210? or a 190? Is bigger always safer? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 January 26, 2004 QuoteWhat I'm asking is...is bigger always safer. For someone with an exit weight of 170....is a 288 safer than a 210? or a 190? Is bigger always safer? Ummm, depends. For instance, if you're on such a large canopy that your wingloading is .4:1, what happens when there's even a 5mph wind? You have to get your pattern exactly right, exit exactly in the right spot, or you may be landing off or flying backwards. Honestly, there is not a "yes it is always this way" answer, there are quite a few variables involved. Including canopy type, student weight, student physical ability, landing area and winds. Chat with your S&TA or one of the experienced instructors and I'm sure they can explain this in detail.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mixoligist 0 #3 January 26, 2004 If someone has a history of NO FLARE landings and/or broken their leg twice in the same 5 months....yes a bigger canopy would be a good start. A canopy control course would be a good idea also................................... Better you than me .................................. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #4 January 26, 2004 Ask yourself why students have huge canopies? It because all else being equal, landing injuries tend to be less severe under lightly loaded canopies as the decent rate tends to be less severe. There is also a much greater margin for error. Yes, bigger canopies can be effected by the wind to a greater degree, but the obvious answer here is that students are not allowed to jump in higher winds. Just because someone is licenced doesnt mean they then have to jump in higher winds - so if they are on a lightly loaded canopy they should seriously consider not jumping in higher winds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #5 January 26, 2004 QuoteAsk yourself why students have huge canopies? It because all else being equal, landing injuries tend to be less severe under lightly loaded canopies as the decent rate tends to be less severe. There is also a much greater margin for error. Yes, bigger canopies can be effected by the wind to a greater degree, but the obvious answer here is that students are not allowed to jump in higher winds. Just because someone is licenced doesnt mean they then have to jump in higher winds - so if they are on a lightly loaded canopy they should seriously consider not jumping in higher winds. If someone is already jumping a lightly loaded canopy...but making poor choices and having problems....would they benefit from jumping an even LIGHTER loaded canopy? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 January 26, 2004 Quotewould they benefit from jumping an even LIGHTER loaded canopy? That depends. It depends on many factors. If I had a student that made very poor decisions under canopy, then I have a feeling that student would be under our 300 Navigator and would have some very intensive canopy control lessons. If it was really bad, I'd take that student up on a tandem and hands on teach some canopy control (again), after some extensive ground training.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #7 January 26, 2004 Because the landing injuries they sustain next time they screw up will be even less (if they screw up). Students make mistakes. They are given big canopies to mitigate the damage those mistakes cost them. If you have someone who demonstrates that they are prone to mistakes, would it also be an idea to give them something that mitigates the damage their mistakes cause? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 21 #8 January 26, 2004 Quote What I'm asking is...is bigger always safer. For someone with an exit weight of 170....is a 288 safer than a 210? or a 190? Is bigger always safer? The only reason I can think of that it would not be is wind related. Same with a "medium performance" canopy over a high performance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #9 January 26, 2004 QuoteUser Ron, in another thread, made the following comment... "A bigger canopy is safer than a smaller one." If you are going to quote me...quote everything that is relevant QuoteA bigger canopy is safer than a smaller one. It reacts slower. Is much more forgiving of pilot error (Such as not flaring) The only thing to remember is that there are lower wind limits on a low wingloaded canopy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #10 January 26, 2004 QuoteThe only reason I can think of that it would not be is wind related. A bigger canopy is safer than a small canopy, if you lower the maximum winds you jump in accordingly. Jumping a large canopy in high winds is not safer than jumping a smaller canopy in high winds because backing up under canopy is unsafe. Fortunately a jumper can decide notto jump in winds too high for their canopy + WL. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #11 January 26, 2004 nothing is always anything in this life. that said, i am confident that you are not always a troll. but in this case you qualify. check yourself.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #12 January 26, 2004 Quote that said, i am confident that you are not always a troll. but in this case you qualify. check yourself. *confused* How is asking a question regarding canopy size and safety in safety and training> trolling...?? How is getting different opinions about what is safe and when considering trolling? Whatever. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #13 January 26, 2004 As has been said there really are very few definitive answers in skydiving. Most things are more like a rule of thumb. You can find if you keep digging a given situation that would or could make any canopy dangerous. The rule of thumb applies here; a bigger canopy is a safer canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caress 0 #14 January 26, 2004 I think elfanie has a great question. in fact that is why I clicked here was to learn more about the question that was posed. I am confused as well as to why on earth you would even incinuate that elfanie is a troll. I think that is rude of you to say that, and you owe her an apology, and if you are not going to post her one, you need to go somewhere else to read and post.-Caress I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #15 January 26, 2004 I am a STUDENT so therefore not really qualified to post a response. . .BUT I kind of have a question about this BIGGER CANOPY thing. . . Okay, so during AFF was on a 260 most of the time. . .(.65/1 wing loading). Could NOT get a full flare in that canopy. . .got to about waist level but never "in the crotch". On AFF level 7 & 8 was downsized to a 240 (.71/1 wingloading). This canopy would actually plane out some on half brakes and then stop at full. I was actually able to get the toggles "in the crotch" for a full flare. . .and my landings have been MUCH better since this small downsize (I have been using it for my student solos. . .a total of 5 jumps on a 240). My questions are. . .is it easier to get a full flare on the smaller canopies? and. . .does a canopy that actually planes out make it easier to get a nice soft landing (standup or otherwise - as long as you are actually flaring the thing each and every time)? I realize there are probably a MILLION variables to this so I am really just wanting some kind of generic answer. . .and as always, ALL of your answers will be discussed with my instructors. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
payback462 0 #16 January 26, 2004 in this case yes a bigger canopy will always be safer. i say in this case because the person still has not come to the realization that THEY fucked up. the only way to fix their problem is to first admit that they have one (kinda like an alcoholic) about 175 jumps ago, i almost broke myself pretty bad, i hit the ground while my canopy was still in a dive. i hit the ground ankle first, then laid out onto my stomach and bouced about 5 feet back into the air, then flared, and somehow stood it up. i did this on video, infront of the 4 best swoopers at my DZ, the only person i had to blame was ME i fucked up. when i got back to the hangar one of them asked me if i thought maybe the funky winds had anything to do with it, i said no, I fucked up, I jumped when i wasnt fully with it (had other things on my mind) I got low, and it was completely my fault. it took a big strong smack in the face from the unforgiving planet earth to make me realize that i needed to pull my head out of my ass and stay on my game. how many broken bones will it take for this person to realize?? this person made a concious effort NOT to flare, they obviously have a severe lack of canopy control skills, knowledge of how their canopy flies, and they suffer from poor decision making, so, anything that will slow their decent to the hard unforgiving ground (even if they are going backwards) can only help at this point. listen to what Ron says, he obviously knows his shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #17 January 26, 2004 gimme a break. she knows, i know, apparently you don't know. this post is simply a continuation of this purely argumentative 'post' prompted in dissatisfaction as a result of this argument and this argument. if it looks like a troll, smells like a troll and sounds like a troll it aint a duck. the question couched in other terms would be beneficial, and this particular thread still may be of use. i am simply calling attention to obvious behavior. are you telling me to leave? that's not very nice. i would never tell you to leave. or stephanie. pfft.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caress 0 #18 January 26, 2004 I did not handle that in the best way, I guess, and I apologize to you pds, I'm just trying to learn about skydiving, and so is Stephanie, I just think your comment was really unnecessary. Can we get back to learning now?-Caress I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 21 #19 January 26, 2004 skyyhi: I am a STUDENT so therefore not really qualified to post a response. . . peek: Well, you are obviously qualified to bring up a point that I had not yet considered. So keep the posts coming. skyyhi: .. was downsized. . .and my landings have been MUCH better since this small downsize. . . .is it easier to get a full flare on the smaller canopies? peek: Generally, for the same design canopy, yes. It's less force because there is less of the tail to be pulled down and less airflow to have to push on with the flared tail. Thanks for asking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #20 January 26, 2004 Quote*confused* How is asking a question regarding canopy size and safety in safety and training> trolling...?? How is getting different opinions about what is safe and when considering trolling? Is not what you asked...It's how you asked it. QuoteUser Ron, in another thread, made the following comment... "A bigger canopy is safer than a smaller one." WHO said it is not important to this thread...It does seem to some that you have an issue with just about anything I say...It's not like I care, but I have gotten PM's about it. So that is why you look like a troll. It seems you are fishing to try and "show me up".... QuoteI took a canopy control course recently in which I was told flat out that a larger canopy is not always a safer canopy, and that if I felt that flying a larger canopy meant that I was safer that it was a mistaken idea. The key phrase here is "and that if I felt that flying a larger canopy meant that I was safer that it was a mistaken idea." Just getting a bigger canopy does not make you safe...This girl just broke herself on a big canopy cause she screwed up. However on a smaller canopy she might have been fine...Or much worse. Bigger tends to be slower...and slower tends to be safer....Going backwards is the only situation that I can think of that makes bigger more dangerous...I can think of several issues that makes smaller more dangerous....And the bigger higher wind issue is easy to avoid...Don't jump in high winds. When in doubt go with safer. Bigger tends to be safer. QuoteHowever...me, with only 51 jumps under my belt...would like to hear from some of the mucho-experienced jumpers Some would say that I am considered "Mucho experienced"....But it seems you just refuse to listen to me for whatever reason, and are shopping around for an answer that fits you better... Its not like I really care. I still sleep at night. But many others have said the exact same thing I said...On this thread and on others....Might be because it is the conventional wisdom."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velo90 0 #21 January 26, 2004 QuoteWhat I'm asking is...is bigger always safer. For someone with an exit weight of 170....is a 288 safer than a 210? or a 190? Is bigger always safer? Assuming that the different sizes are for the same type of canopy, and that the weather conditions are appropiate for the canopy being jumped. I would say Yes. But it's only safer, not safe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #22 January 26, 2004 If someone put a gun to my head and made me choose between a velocity 120 or a PD 106R, I'm pretty sure I'd be safer under the PD. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velo90 0 #23 January 26, 2004 QuoteIf someone put a gun to my head and made me choose between a velocity 120 or a PD 106R, I'm pretty sure I'd be safer under the PD. Ahh but elfanie discounted this reply with... ***[/I'm not saying, "Is a wing loading of 1.8 safer than a wing loading of 2.4?" quote] How much do you weigh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #24 January 26, 2004 Quote this post is simply a continuation of this purely argumentative 'post' prompted in dissatisfaction as a result of this argument and this argument. Quote actually...the question I posed had absolutely ZILCH to do with any previous discussion Ron and I had ever had or not had. (and I'm not sure why you'd think that one disucssion would have anything to do with another?) If Ron felt that I improperly quoted him...than I apologize to him. I didn't feel that the rest of the quote was relevant, as I was simply asking the opinion of others (and Ron had already given his) whether a larger canopy is always safe - specifically since I'd been told very recently in a class that a larger canopy is not necessarily safer. But trolling? For WHAT, praytell? What could I be trolling for? What reaction do you think I was hoping for? Learning the opinions of those more experienced than myself? Like I said...whatever. *shrug* -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #25 January 26, 2004 Quote WHO said it is not important to this thread...It does seem to some that you have an issue with just about anything I say...It's not like I care, but I have gotten PM's about it. So that is why you look like a troll. It seems you are fishing to try and "show me up".... Trying to 'show you up"? By asking questions?? See...to me, that would mean that I was listening to what you're saying and thinking about it and wanting to delve deeper into something that was said. never occured to me that you could think that a newbie would be trying to show you up. *shrug* Quote QuoteHowever...me, with only 51 jumps under my belt...would like to hear from some of the mucho-experienced jumpers Some would say that I am considered "Mucho experienced"....But it seems you just refuse to listen to me for whatever reason, and are shopping around for an answer that fits you better... Inaccurate. I said mucho-experienced jumperS..plural. You're right in that I refuse to listen to you...or any one source for anything. I shop around...not for an answer that i'm hoping to hear, but to get many sources through which to educate myself before making a decision/opinion. I take what you say as important, Ron...but you're not God. If I didn't take what you say seriously, I never would have questioned you. If you were a newbie with little experience, I wouldn't have had my interest peaked and wouldn't have addressed this issue in here.... Quote But many others have said the exact same thing I said...On this thread and on others....Might be because it is the conventional wisdom. Yet I was just recently told differently in a class...which is why I wanted to see if it was conventional wisdom or if it was a controversial idea, who believed which side, and what each side had to say about it... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
elfanie 0 #25 January 26, 2004 Quote WHO said it is not important to this thread...It does seem to some that you have an issue with just about anything I say...It's not like I care, but I have gotten PM's about it. So that is why you look like a troll. It seems you are fishing to try and "show me up".... Trying to 'show you up"? By asking questions?? See...to me, that would mean that I was listening to what you're saying and thinking about it and wanting to delve deeper into something that was said. never occured to me that you could think that a newbie would be trying to show you up. *shrug* Quote QuoteHowever...me, with only 51 jumps under my belt...would like to hear from some of the mucho-experienced jumpers Some would say that I am considered "Mucho experienced"....But it seems you just refuse to listen to me for whatever reason, and are shopping around for an answer that fits you better... Inaccurate. I said mucho-experienced jumperS..plural. You're right in that I refuse to listen to you...or any one source for anything. I shop around...not for an answer that i'm hoping to hear, but to get many sources through which to educate myself before making a decision/opinion. I take what you say as important, Ron...but you're not God. If I didn't take what you say seriously, I never would have questioned you. If you were a newbie with little experience, I wouldn't have had my interest peaked and wouldn't have addressed this issue in here.... Quote But many others have said the exact same thing I said...On this thread and on others....Might be because it is the conventional wisdom. Yet I was just recently told differently in a class...which is why I wanted to see if it was conventional wisdom or if it was a controversial idea, who believed which side, and what each side had to say about it... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
