Bad spot = go around

[EricaH 0]

Cuz then you're prob tracking down jump run & that's not such a great idea either.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Remster 30]

Quote

that's not such a great idea either.

Thats a worse idea actually.... I'll pick landing off DZ anyday over tracking above other groups....

Remster

[EricaH 0]

I agree, just tryin to be nice.

I either get yelled @ for being too harsh or for being too soft.

One of the conversations I hate hearing on the plane is:

a: which direction is jump run?
b: i don't know, what's it matter anyway?


I know if you leave enough seperation it SHOULDN'T matter, but still - I've had way too many people fall through my airspace to feel lackadasical about it.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[cvfd1399 0]

I was thinking the whole load(2 or 3 jumpers) of a small jump plane.

[Beerlight 0]

Chris,

I come to you, cause I know you've got the answer...

What would a typical Otter go-around cost? Figuring time/Fuel burn/engine wear...etc. Also, dialing in that you have a load waiting on the ground, ready to go....

I would guess that if enough go-arounds occur in a year at a very busy DZ, it could definitely eat into the DZO's bottomline...... maybe...

Enough of those, and jump ticket price increase?

Buck

[diverdriver 7]

An exact number? I dunno actually. It would take at most 4 minutes to go around and do another jump run. We run 2 planes most of the time and that usually doesn't interfere with the next drop so we have the room. Economic pressures do exist but a DZ HAS to account for go around fuel use. On an assembly line you would call it "breakage" or "spoilage". You will have a certain amount of it.

I will be more miffed at a jumper who has been at the DZ 3 years asking for a go around on load 20 when it is the same jumprun I've been dialed into all day than someone visiting. I had that one time and the manifest was jumping all over me on the radio for dropping people off to the north. (Farmer McNasty and not so easy to go get them in a truck or golf cart) I said "They pulled low." They asked how I knew and I said "Because they landed off." I spotted them walking back fine and after landing from the next load they were walking in from the runway. I pulled the window down and I point at him, gestured a deployment motion, and then pointed at the ground. He laughed out loud and gave me a thumbs up as that was why he landed out. I know my business and I know when an out landing is my fault and when it is the jumper's fault. I skydive too and have 850 jumps. I think this helps a jump pilot tremendously with their ability to spot using GPS from the front. I know I can spot better up front than I can looking out the back and down. But I do know that looking down out the back I still am fairly decent on the spot.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[ixlr82 7]

Never do a tracking dive into the line of flight. You are tracking right into the airspace of the groups that left before you. Not only that, but if the spot were really long and the group before you pulled high...well, think about it. Only one 182 group, yeah, no problem, track away

__________________________________________

[skr 1]

>You notice that the spot has become VERY long.

>If you exit, you'd have to pull high to get back.

>You ask for a go around.

>What happens?

Sometimes I get a go around, sometimes I get
yelled at.

But whether to go or not depends on circumstances.

At Eloy over Christmas I go because it's wide open
and they really pay attention and will send a truck
out for you.

At Quincy I've gone thinking that there are enough
open fields near roads down there.

Although one year I was in the first group out of a
Casa. The light went from red standby to green go,
I didn't recognize anything down there but thought
it was just my lack of familiarity. We landed 7 miles
short.

At home by myself I would probably just go and then
angle off the jumprun and track because I like to track.

With a student I will not intentionally land out. We have
to be inside the leading or trailing edge of their wind
cone.

I'm not talking about getting them onto the peas, but
just making it to the clear area that the peas are in.

With more experienced groups I don't see why we
should have to get out too long and then abandon
the plan and pull high.

Anyway, it's dangerous if people start pulling and/or
tracking off in the middle of a jump.


So economics and turbines are a valid concern, but
people getting hurt really sucks even more to me.

Skr

[Squeak 17]

A simliar thing happened last weekend.
there was an 8 way team leaving before us. The plane was above cloud and the pilot said he'd go around to wait for a break. After we went around once the 8 way decided it was OK to leave. We didn't think it was, so We asked thew pilot what he thought (long time jump pilot). He said one more lap around would give us clear clean air so we went around one mopre time and got clear clean air
The 8 way got wet and landed in gusty winds.
We deffered to the pilot becuase he had a better picture of what was happening and if the hole had not been ok I was happy to land in the plane. rain, wet cloud jumping SUX and huts

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[WrongWay 0]

I agree with weegegirl. It really depends on the pilot and his boss.

Some dz's will do goarounds until the cows come home just to make sure everyone gets back safely. Others will put you out 2 miles because they want to save gas money. It's all relative to where you are and who's running the show.

And yes, as a freeflyer, it's a pain in the ass to get hosed by the 4 way teams that don't get TO the door till green.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[Rauk 0]

Problem there is that you are most likely tracking back down the line of flight. You will get back closer to the DZ, but you will also be flying toward and over opening canopies, you've got to keep the tracking perpindicular to the jump run to avoid this.

[MikeJD 0]

Quote

Cuz then you're prob tracking down jump run & that's not such a great idea either.

And the other thing that really bugs me is having groups getting out too close together, or if they're behind you yelling at your group to get out faster, JUST because they think the spot is getting too long. Having one group take a long time in the door isn't rectifiable by having everyone else get out on top of one another - you're just exchanging a relatively small risk for a much bigger one.

At my local DZ we have quite a lot of holds due to commercial air traffic, so you could be circling at the same altitude for minutes at a time. So I guess an occasional go-around on the jump run isn't such a big deal in the scheme of things.

[skr 1]

>And the other thing that really bugs me is having groups
>getting out too close together, or if they're behind you
>yelling at your group to get out faster, JUST because
>they think the spot is getting too long. Having one group
>take a long time in the door isn't rectifiable by having
>everyone else get out on top of one another - you're just
>exchanging a relatively small risk for a much bigger one.

Yes, that bugs me too. It's lack of training or immaturity
or something.

This last weekend we had a Casa passing through and
on one of the loads, about a minute before red light stand
by, the frantic word came back that there wasn't enough
fuel for a go around, everybody out on this pass, no more
than 3 seconds between groups.

I don't know how we got into that situation, it was hot and
humid and climbing slow, so maybe they miscalculated or
something.

But I thought, if we're running out of fuel, we're edging into
an emergency situation, and should stop acting like
everything-is-normal-except-it's-not-really and drop part
of the load on this pass and the rest on a lower pass on
the way back down.

There were a whole bunch of small ways.

But convincing a Casa load of jumpers plus two pilots
who probably weren't in a mood to listen to a lowly jumper
anyway didn't seem feasible in the next 30 seconds, so
we went and hoped for the best.

It seems like in an open area landing out is a better idea
than getting out too close together.

I don't know what all the rest of the groups did, but we
were second out and left normal separation and so did
the group behind us. They had turned on the green light
early so we were pretty short, but everybody landed OK.


This seems related to the mental gear shift needed for
malfunctions where the world changes from normal
E-ticket Disneyland to deep spinach emergency.

Skr

[cvfd1399 0]

That's why I said the whole load does a tracking dive. Everyone on the same level going the same direction

[ScratchTX 0]

Quote

But I thought, if we're running out of fuel, we're edging into an emergency situation, and should stop acting like everything-is-normal-except-it's-not-really and drop part of the load on this pass and the rest on a lower pass on the way back down.
Skr

What's the safest way to accomplish a second lower pass (assuming it's over the same exit point)? I understand some places do this regularly, but being a 182/206 baby I never really understood it. Are you counting on the horizontal separation you'd get from the first group(s) freefall drift and canopy flight while the plane is circling/descending for a second pass? And since the plane is descending, too, how would you figure if vertical separation would be "enough," or are you just relying on the horizontal?

I prefer the landing out in an alternate area approach, too, if someone could on-the-spot adjust the spot for a good alternate. I think I'd most prefer having enough fuel, though...

[skr 1]

>What's the safest way to accomplish a second lower pass

I think go arounds should probably be offset
from the first pass, assuming the dropzone is
open enough to allow that.

If you do a 180 you get back over the first
groups too soon and some of the canopies
may still be up there in the kill zone.

But with people pulling higher and higher
I sometimes wonder about full 360 go arounds
that take several minutes.

Probably another area that needs to be
re thought some time.


I was thinking two passes because all the
tandems and students are in the last half of
the load and you don't want them landing out.

But also trying to squeeze all the groups into
a single jump run by telling them to get out
really close together is a bad idea.

Bryan Burke's big sky theory works in our favor,
but it can't be part of the separation procedures.


My guess is that starting from 5,000 ft field
elevation on a hot and humid day they got to
the last load before refueling and saw that they
were getting low.

They probably didn't want to accept that they
were getting too low until they absolutely had
to and then didn't want to accept the mistake
and shift into emergency alternatives.

So they tried to bridge the gap by telling the
jumpers to all get out on one pass close together.

I'm often surprised even now by how little pilots
understand about jumping.

So I understand all that, that's how people operate.
It's hard to admit mistakes, especially in the heat
of the action.

I'm just saying that if we think about this ahead of
time we can come up with a better response next
time it happens.

Lots of small groups on a pretty big plane is the
worst case.

Skr

[flynhigh 0]

I have never had a problem with go arounds at any DZ I've visited - what I've seen more often are those who get out not knowing it's a bad/long spot. You need to understand how to spot in order to know when to ask for a go around.

Dare to dream and then make it happen!

[rocketdog 0]

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the pilot ultimately & legally responsible for putting jumpers out?

given this -- and other more moral issues -- i think pilots should do a go around. Plus, i feel like it's unfair to punish the last jumpers for the first jumpers who are already out with the *good* spot....

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com

[kallend 2,146]

Some observations:

At a busy DZ the last out are usually tandems or "Birdmen". Birders shouldn't have an issue, and the pilot should certainly pay attention to an instructor. If the last out is a 50 jump wonder, then maybe the pilot knows best anyway.

If it's not busy, then what's the problem with a go-around?

The pilot turns the green light on AND OFF. Generally the pilot will have better information about the winds aloft and the likely drift than will the average skydiver. Unless the pilot is a novice or an a$$hole, his/her opinion on the spot is probably correct.

Most of the problems I've seen come when the first group out waits for the perfect spot instead of taking an acceptable spot. This is anti-social.

Skydivers get antsy when the uppers are strong and the delay between groups is long. No need for this, when the uppers are strong the time for which the green light can be on for an acceptable spot increases. At SDC the greenlight can be on for over 2 minutes if the uppers are at 50kts (not altogether unknown).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

I was on a plane one time when someone asked for a go-around while the plane was directly over the DZ. This person then closed the door and did not allow anyone else to pass him to the exit in order to jump. Pilot stayed on jump run until the end then did his go around. In other words we were in the plane for a LOOOOOOOONG time. Later, on conversing with the jumper, it was discovered that he was unfamiliar with jump run when the otter door was facing the lake and did not see that the DZ was directly below the plane. He apologized to everyone of course.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!

• Quote

[riggerrob 643]

At Pitt Meadows, air traffic controllers so rarely give go-arounds above 5,000 that you should not waste anyone's time asking.
Most of the bad spots at "altitude" are caused bythe first group wasting a half-hour climbing out.
While I have landed in the middle of the airport a dozen times, I have only landed short three times.
Besides, our pilots are far better at spotting with GPS than most of our jumpers.

[StearmanR985 0]

Hmm,

Around here:

Long Spot = Pitch higher

[hookitt 1]

Quote

I have never had a problem with go arounds at any DZ I've visited

You haven't visited Lodi.

Edit: See post above this one.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[MikeJD 0]

Quote

Plus, i feel like it's unfair to punish the last jumpers for the first jumpers who are already out with the *good* spot....

Agreed. Which is why, at least at my DZ, we generally try to give the middle group of the load the sweetest spot, all other things being equal (obviously if half your load comprises high-pulling tandems, you can afford a deeper spot). So for example in the event of a nil-wind day your first group will be getting out short of the dropzone. The argument AGAINST this might be that you then get the early group(s) heading back towards the dropzone under canopy from 'downwind' and thus closing the distance between themselves and the next group out, so it becomes even more important to ensure good group separation on exit.

[rocketdog 0]

interesting.... never thought about the flip-side to that....
~hollywood

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com