damion75 0 #1 June 15, 2004 I was sparked off on this thread by the S&TA thread about the guy who was ready to jump with a pull up cord in his rig which then moved on to pin checks. One poster made the comment that he would not trust most people to 'know how to do a pin check' However, having trawled through the skydiving related forums on DZ.com for a few months now, I have noticed a serious trend of people not knowing a lot about their equipment - so I do not find that comment as surprising as I think I should! I know that there are a lot of things to think about when you are learning to skydive, but I really do think that that time while you are learning is a time when you should be learning about the equipment which is going to save your life, how it works and what to check on it. Doing something as simple asa pin check should not phase anyone - even with the different types of container on the market IMHO. Thoughts?*************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luna 0 #2 June 15, 2004 Well, to get you A now, you have to give another jumper a gear check. You should also be learning how to check over your own gear before each jump. Additionally, there are things like assembling the 3-rings and replacing the closing loop, as well as packing of course. I don't know, I think the gear training (at least in the ISP program, can't speak for the previous program that some DZ's still use) is pretty thorough when the program is followed. I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #3 June 15, 2004 I just learned how to disassemble the three ring system. I have over 100 jumps now. I think this should be integrated into the student training. . .it would be helpful to know stuff. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
damion75 0 #4 June 15, 2004 QuoteWell, to get you A now, you have to give another jumper a gear check. You should also be learning how to check over your own gear before each jump. Additionally, there are things like assembling the 3-rings and replacing the closing loop, as well as packing of course. I don't know, I think the gear training (at least in the ISP program, can't speak for the previous program that some DZ's still use) is pretty thorough when the program is followed. Under the UK system, jumpers are required to be able to 'assemble a rig' for the IC1 qualification, which you need for your 'B' licence. In theory, to qualify as a solo skydiver (A lic) there is no mandatory knowledge of how the system works?!! Surely that is just wrong...*************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #5 June 15, 2004 QuoteI just learned how to disassemble the three ring system. I have over 100 jumps now. I think this should be integrated into the student training. . .it would be helpful to know stuff. . . It's one of the things you have to show proficiency in to get an "A" licence. Ask.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 2 #6 June 15, 2004 Just pull right.... (Don't you learn assembling and disassembling the three-ring when you're in the hanging harness as a student? It's not like it's rocket science, no offense.) In Germany as a licensed skydiver you are even allowed to do your own reserve repack (Don't know anyone who does, though). From my experience you usually don't find packers (as opposed to riggers) at german DZs, so packing is part of every AFF course. Basic gear functionality is part of the licensing exam, IIRC. Of course, not everything sticks and becomes knowledge, but i have found myself looking at how people who had other licences (other issuing associations) packed their stuff and being seriously scared. I also found that the DZ where i did my AFF did a superior job as compared to almost all DZs i've been to since.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #7 June 15, 2004 As can be seen from various international responders, not all licences are created equal. To me, this is all the more reason to assume responsibility for my own actions. That to me means checking my own gear before I put it on, making sure my own chest strap is correctly routed, and giving myself a final pin check by feel prior to exit. Sooner or later I will find myself on a load where no one else is qualified or are too busy with their own students to check me out, I have been in that situation in the past. Flight line checks are good, but they should supplement personal discipline.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nael 0 #8 June 15, 2004 I think it'd be a good idea to teach this in detail (not just the quick "this is how we do a gear check" just before you get on the plane for one of your first jumps when you are so nervous they could tell you they've removed the parachute from the container and you'de still be ok with it!). Having said that though, if you want to know something you just need to ask someone who can teach you. I plan on learning how to do a detailed gear check in the next week, and I dont even have my A yet, but I want to learn as much as possible, and a gear check is something I'd love to be able to do for myself (with an experienced jumper watching closely at the moment!).www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #9 June 15, 2004 Good for you Nael. Some useful pointers here http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Gear_and_Equipment/index.shtml and here http://www.zct.co.uk/skydivemag/pages/articles/apr97/flightlinecheck.htm http://www.zct.co.uk/skydivemag/pages/articles/aug96/lookafteryourkit.htm -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #10 June 15, 2004 QuoteIt's one of the things you have to show proficiency in to get an "A" licence. They teach you this stuff in the hanging harness but you only go over it. I know how to cut away, but reassembling the thing was something I had not seen before till this last weekend. I am selling my main and needed to disconnect it from the container. . .decided this was a good time to clean cutaway cables and flex the rings so I had someone show me how to do it. Yes, I remember learning the technical aspects before licensing but I never saw it done or had to do it myself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #11 June 15, 2004 Quote I . . .decided this was a good time to clean cutaway cables and flex the rings so I had someone show me how to do it. Yes, I remember learning the technical aspects before licensing but I never saw it done or had to do it myself. "Perform manufacturer-recommended owner service on a canopy release system" is one of the items on the 2-sided A-license proficiency card. The 4-sided A-license ISP progression card says just "Assemble 3-ring," but the ISP text is more complete. The point is, in the USPA student program there already is more gear training than you remember. If you cannot remember doing this particular task, there may be others you've missed as well. I'd recommend you find a 2-sided A-license proficiency card (at the dz, or download from USPA's website), to see if there's anything else you need a refresher on. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OnYourBack 0 #12 June 15, 2004 I agree that most people need to know more about their gear. After spending years as a packer and now a rigger I see many who don't know how to do simple maintenance. I am not sure that the blame should be cast on the dz's or uspa(or international counterpart). The information is out there and not very hard to find. Instead of dropping your rig on a packer and running out to brag about how many points you almost got, how about asking some questions. I don't think I have ever heard a rigger tell someone to "get lost" if you asked them how to do something. As someone already said in this forum its not rocket science by any means. You don't have to set up a formal classroom to spread information. Take responsibility for educating yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #13 June 15, 2004 QuoteThey teach you this stuff in the hanging harness but you only go over it. I know how to cut away, but reassembling the thing was something I had not seen before till this last weekend. Well, if you went through the student progression in the last year or so, then you got cheated. Here's what the USPA says you're suposed to learn: From the ISP, Category H, section D as quoted in the SIM. Quote Note: An FAA rigger or instructor should teach this section. 1. Owner maintenance of three-ring release system: a. Disassemble the system every month to clean the cable and massage the ends of the risers. (1) Nylon riser webbing develops a memory, especially when dirty. (2) When disassembled, twist and massage the nylon webbing around the two riser rings. b. Clean the cables. (1) Most three-ring release cables develop a sludge-like coating that causes them to bind, increasing the required pull force. (2) Refer to the manufacturer's instructions for cleaning. This is the same section that mentions replacing closing loops and line stows. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #14 June 15, 2004 QuoteI am not sure that the blame should be cast on the dz's or uspa(or international counterpart). The blame should be placed on the jumper. If the jumper wants to know something, he needs to ask. The brief gear training in a FJC is sufficient for a first time jumper. There is no need to overload them with information until after they've decided to stick with the sport. Someone making it to over 100 jumps without knowing how to assemble/disassemble the 3ring is their own fault. I'm tired of jumpers expecting everything to be handed to them. If you like the sport, seek all the information you can get. Don't wait around for the "information fairy" to come find you and teach you stuff. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OnYourBack 0 #15 June 15, 2004 If you like the sport, seek all the information you can get. Don't wait around for the "information fairy" to come find you and teach you stuff. Amen! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #16 June 15, 2004 QuoteThe blame should be placed on the jumper. If the jumper wants to know something, he needs to ask. I guess I gotta agree with Sunny on this one. Like I said before, I had been shown how to do this stuff on the training harness but it is a little bit different when doing it on "real" gear. I asked and that is why I now know. But I agree that the training should be drilled MORE. Perhaps with the disconnecting and reconnecting of a "real" rig, rather than a training harness.________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #17 June 15, 2004 Quote I'm tired of jumpers expecting everything to be handed to them. If you like the sport, seek all the information you can get. Don't wait around for the "information fairy" to come find you and teach you stuff. The problem with new jumpers seeking out information is that it's unlikely to be systematic. Without a guide (or a fairy), they're likely to get 60-80% of the information they need. To solve that, you need only have a skeleton guide, like Bill's downsizing checklist. There is such a list with the A card, but I won't know how complete that is for another few weeks. (at least) And you don't have to go back very far before it didn't exist. I did attach a 3 ring - it just happened to work out that a JM had to do a reserve jump and he was reassembling. I was a bit surprised at how little is holding the main to the harness - just pull that wire out a bit and it goes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OnYourBack 0 #18 June 15, 2004 "Without a guide (or a fairy), they're likely to get 60-80% of the information they need." There are plenty of guides: SIM Owners Manual Proficiency Card Riggers Instructors Up Jumpers DZ Friends Parachutist DZ.com Why does someone have to make you do it. Do you have to have a test looming to make you study something you enjoy. Maybe thats the problem. Its fun to make jumps and learn more about flight but most people hate packing and crawling around in the hanger when there is fun stuff going on outside so they neglect that aspect of the sport. Take responsibility for yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luna 0 #19 June 15, 2004 QuotePerhaps with the disconnecting and reconnecting of a "real" rig, rather than a training harness. Well, I went through on the ISP, and not only did I use a "real" rig, it was my instructor's rig, and he was not doing a re-pack or anything, he just pulled the handle for us and had a few of us take turns re-assembling it. I don't think that there is any problem with the training program, I guess it's just how it's implemented. I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
damion75 0 #20 June 15, 2004 QuoteThe blame should be placed on the jumper. If the jumper wants to know something, he needs to ask. The brief gear training in a FJC is sufficient for a first time jumper. There is no need to overload them with information until after they've decided to stick with the sport. Someone making it to over 100 jumps without knowing how to assemble/disassemble the 3ring is their own fault. I'm tired of jumpers expecting everything to be handed to them. If you like the sport, seek all the information you can get. Don't wait around for the "information fairy" to come find you and teach you stuff. Can't argue with that - people DO need to show more of an interest, but... Quote (from onyourback)Its fun to make jumps and learn more about flight but most people hate packing and crawling around in the hanger when there is fun stuff going on outside so they neglect that aspect of the sport. And that is not going to go away. The thing is, I am not talking about every jumper being a rigger or an advanced packer, just knowing enough to maintain their gear, and enough to spot when something is about to go wrong. Perhaps we need to make jumpers take more of an interest in their gear. Or would that be over-regulation and facist mind control? It is the not knowing the real basics which concerns me - like Nacmacfeegle not being able to trust any and every licenced skydiver on the plane to do something as simple as a pin check safely. (not picking on NMF - because sadly neither do I - it is someone I know and trust, or a 'reach around'!)*************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #21 June 15, 2004 Quote Why does someone have to make you do it. Do you have to have a test looming to make you study something you enjoy. Maybe thats the problem. Its fun to make jumps and learn more about flight but most people hate packing and crawling around in the hanger when there is fun stuff going on outside so they neglect that aspect of the sport. Take responsibility for yourself. You miss the point. How do I know what I don't know? I'm going to be looking at what I think is important and/or interesting. I don't presume that to be comprehensive. I have the 2004 SIM - I'm pretty sure I already know it's missing some bits of interest to me. I don't have an owner's manual - I don't have a rig yet nor will for a bit longer. People are very unreliable in this front. Hence my guess that self direction is 60-80% complete, depending on the person. I actually like gear geeking. I have 9 years of experience with scuba gear concerns. Longer with mountaineering. But those first few years, I made several bad choices that had to be replaced later. I didn't know enough then. It's easy to say new jumpers should be responsible, but it's also a bit of a copout. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #22 June 16, 2004 QuoteI was sparked off on this thread by the S&TA thread about the guy who was ready to jump with a pull up cord in his rig which then moved on to pin checks. One poster made the comment that he would not trust most people to 'know how to do a pin check' However, having trawled through the skydiving related forums on DZ.com for a few months now, I have noticed a serious trend of people not knowing a lot about their equipment - so I do not find that comment as surprising as I think I should! I know that there are a lot of things to think about when you are learning to skydive, but I really do think that that time while you are learning is a time when you should be learning about the equipment which is going to save your life, how it works and what to check on it. Doing something as simple asa pin check should not phase anyone - even with the different types of container on the market IMHO. Thoughts? USPA sees a problem and has plans to announce (later this year, I think) a new GT rating. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #23 June 16, 2004 QuoteYou miss the point. How do I know what I don't know? I'm a rigger and there is stuff i don't know. I'm still always asking or watching other people. Learning never stops. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #24 June 16, 2004 Which reminds me .... I promised to give a CSPA "Know Your Gear" seminar at Pitt Meadows sometime this summer. Now I have to set a date, dig out line samples, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OnYourBack 0 #25 June 16, 2004 >You miss the point. How do I know what I don't know? I apologize I wasn't trying to state that I knew what you knew. >It's easy to say new jumpers should be responsible, but it's also a bit of a copout. I don't see what I'm copping out of. I love to help people learn in skydiving. I will answer any question asked or find the answer for them. What I'm trying to say is that while I agree that there are a lot of people who probably need more gear training to be as safe as they could be, I don't think the best way to do it is to assign another rule or required class or merit badge. The information people need is readily available already. There are opportunities to learn all around, but you have to look. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
