groza 0 #1 June 22, 2004 I am ukrainian skydiver. In our skydive forum we now discuss about rules of certification on C license. Ukrainian C license like USPA license contain requirement about landing within two meters of target. Some our skydivers thinks that this requrement not actual at present day because most of people use canopies with wingloading 1.3 or higher. These canopies are not designed for such purposes as landing within small targets. Can somebody tell me how it works in USA? It is difficult to believe that each skydiver can perform 25 landings in two meters target on his own canopy... how it specified in USPA requirements: http://uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/section3.htm May be skydivers use large canopies to perform this test? Or most of USA skydivers does not have C license? Plese, tell some words to help me understand your situation with skydive licenses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
payback462 0 #2 June 22, 2004 wow, you cant be serious QuoteThese canopies are not designed for such purposes as landing within small targets. yes they are. i know someone who got their pro-rating on a vengeance 89. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vt1977 0 #3 June 22, 2004 Just my very humble opinion here but if jumpers with around 200 jumps (required for C licence) cannot hit a target on a canopy loaded at 1.3, then perhaps they would be wise to consider upsizing and learning to walk before trying to run! Vicki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
groza 0 #4 June 22, 2004 No, I am seriouse Quoteyes they are. i know someone who got their pro-rating on a vengeance 89. Yes, you know someone. And I am too. But they possibe has little more than two hundreds of jumps required on C license? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
groza 0 #5 June 22, 2004 Vicki, so, all skydivers from your dropzone with C licenses and number of jumps about two-three hundreds really can hit a two meters target in few jumps one by one? Hm.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #6 June 22, 2004 Crap. Did this move from 5 meters in the 2003 SIM to 2 meters in the 2004 SIM? Grrr, now I have to do more precision landings because half of my 25 are 3 and 4 meters! (And once I had enough inside of 4 meters, I changed up and decided to have more fun and not worry about landing 7 meters away. ) Anyway, what I meant to post about was the ambiguity on the landing accuracy: I think someone could touch down on the target (or within two meters of it) and slide or run it out (standing, of course). The SIM doesn't say that the accuracy landings for A, B, and C have to start and end within a certain circle. But for the PRO rating, SIM 2004 section 7-2 B.1.d(2) says "make the first contact and stop within the ten-meter circle and make all landings standing up". The increased specificity for the PRO rating makes me think they'll let you count swoops that first contact the ground within the accuracy requirement. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lordtime 0 #7 June 22, 2004 I don't think everyone with W/L 1.3 and higher with around 200 jumps is a high experienced swoop machine to hit point at 2x2... check yourself -==- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #8 June 22, 2004 QuoteJust my very humble opinion here but if jumpers with around 200 jumps (required for C licence) cannot hit a target on a canopy loaded at 1.3, then perhaps they would be wise to consider upsizing and learning to walk before trying to run! This is some very wise advise. Very very well said. Putting any canopy, regardless of the design or wingloading, where you want to put it in all conditions (within reason) is an important survival skill. From billvon's excellent Downsizing Checklist : "4. Land reliably within a 10 meter circle. This is essentially the PRO requirement. This is critical because your accuracy skills are what will keep you from _having_ to turn low. It's very comforting to know that you can land in any 50ish foot clearing if you find yourself having to land out; it's especially important as you get to smaller canopies that need longer and longer runways to land well. Your only option may be a section of road, and you may have to hit the beginning of the road dead-on to have enough room to slow down." In my opinion, the C License accuracy requirements are not only quite practical, they are essential. With proper instruction and coaching early on, students and newly licensed jumpers will hone their canopy accuracy to a fine edge while still jumping larger, more forgiving canopies. Then, when they reach 200 jumps, they will likely have already knocked out the requirement for 25 landings within 2 metersArrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
groza 0 #9 June 22, 2004 Quote4. Land reliably within a 10 meter circle. For example... I can easy land my canopy loaded at 1.3 within a 10 meter circle in a few jumps one by one. But I can not perform this safely with 2 meters target because this require significantly more expierense than my 200 jumps. QuoteThen, when they reach 200 jumps, they will likely have already knocked out the requirement for 25 landings within 2 meters Does this mean that these 25 landings can be done not one by one but they can be any random jumps from these 200 total required on C license? Our C license requires from skydiver to perform special accuracy test: skydiver must perfrorm three jumps one by one with average accuracy 2 meters. Many people think now that this requirement are not actual since most of skydivers use canopies loaded at 1.3 or higher which are not designed for accurance jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harksaw 0 #10 June 22, 2004 The jumps for the American C liscense, at least when I got it, did not have to be declared or sequential. They could be any of the jumps I had made.__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #11 June 22, 2004 QuoteBut I can not perform this safely with 2 meters target because this require significantly more expierense than my 200 jumps. But you could easily jump a larger canopy (rented, borrowed, etc.) and complete the requirements, assuming you hadn't done it already on your way to 200 jumps. QuoteDoes this mean that these 25 landings can be done not one by one but they can be any random jumps from these 200 total required on C license? Ah! Now I understand what you mean by "one-by-one." As earlier stated, they don't need to be pre-declared or sequential (one-by-one). Only our PRO rating requires jumps like that.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #12 June 22, 2004 The requirement is to have your first point of contact within a 2M circle. Being lined up left-right with the target is trivial. I don't think I've jumped a ZP parachute that wouldn't swoop 5-10X that with a little front riser so you're really only trying to get within 10-20M of the circle. Modern parachutes have made this simpler. The pro-rating requires to finish stopping in a 10 meter circle. While you may use different tools on modern parachutes (sink and pop up to kill speed, curve the approach) than big F111 seven cells (sink it in) it's not much harder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #13 June 22, 2004 QuoteI don't think everyone with W/L 1.3 and higher with around 200 jumps is a high experienced swoop machine to hit point at 2x2... check yourself This is true and part of why I have a 190 sf canopy (W/L 1.15). If I weren't able to make the accuracy requirements of the next license I'm working on, maybe my canopy is too advanced for my skills. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
groza 0 #14 June 23, 2004 QuoteBut you could easily jump a larger canopy (rented, borrowed, etc.) and complete the requirements, assuming you hadn't done it already on your way to 200 jumps. Yes, I can complete the accurence requirements with larger canopy then my own. But what is the sense of this? We supposes that accurency requirements exists to facilitate safety of jumpers, isn't it? But completing these requirements on larger canopies does not mean that skydivers can do this on their own canopies! So, accurency requirements in their present form is simple formality... QuoteAh! Now I understand what you mean by "one-by-one." As earlier stated, they don't need to be pre-declared or sequential (one-by-one). Only our PRO rating requires jumps like that. Can you tell how it organized on your dropzone? Is this a special instructor who always control who and how landed on the target? Or jumper must notify his instructor before jump if he plan to land in the target? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marysha 0 #15 June 23, 2004 QuoteI do not quite understand your reply... do you have to land exactly into a 2 meter circle during 25 jumps in order to become C-license holder or do youmerely have to fit into a 2 meter "corridor"? We have discussions around our license requirements; thus, as it was already said, one must lans within the circle in three consecutive certification jumps. As a rule, there are several people in one load doing those accuracy jumps. Firstly, they are trying to hit one target on relatively loaded canopies (1.3 or even higher) which, we think, may be dangerous. Secondly, while trying to land within a small target in order to meet certification requirements, a person can tend to flare to high or to low which can also be dangerous. The only way to show that you CAN land within the target is usually to take a big canopy and to show accuracy jumping on a canopy with a low wingload. However, is it not a bit senseless then? Currently, there are hot disputes whether we should change our rules and set, e.g., 10 meter accuracy requirement or think about 2 meter corridor (not a circle to land). HOwever, we have not reached a common opinion yet, and that it why we would really appreciate if you explain how your USPA requirements work on practice and whether you agree with them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #16 June 23, 2004 QuoteCan you tell how it organized on your dropzone? Is this a special instructor who always control who and how landed on the target? Or jumper must notify his instructor before jump if he plan to land in the target? From the USPA Skydivers' Information Manual (PRO Rating requirements): ". . . make all jumps in front of at least three witnesses, one of whom is an S&TA, Instructor/Examiner, or USPA National Director." All one has to do is organize his certifying official (it would be an S&TA at my DZ) ans witnesses before going up, pre-declare the jump as a PRO rating qualification jump, make first contact and land standing up in a 10 meter circle (the size of most pea gravel pits).Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites groza 0 #17 June 23, 2004 QuoteAll one has to do is organize his certifying official (it would be an S&TA at my DZ) ans witnesses before going up, pre-declare the jump as a PRO rating qualification jump, make first contact and land standing up in a 10 meter circle (the size of most pea gravel pits). Sorry... probably my question was not clear. I want to know how organized control of these 25 landings for C license? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nightjumps 1 #18 June 23, 2004 Groza, It's not an organized or dedicated thing that is done in the last 25 jumps of the 200 required to get the "C" license. The requirement is done over the course of all 200 jumps OR one should be able to land within six feet of the target (that's a twelveish foot circle) at least every 8 jumps. About the size of a small room. Most of the DZs here in the US have a big white "X" about 6-10 feet long. Over the course of one's progression, we do things to encourage hitting the "X"... We do fun "Hit & Chug" contests Have mini accuracy contests, etc. On a separate note; if you have folks who are loading a canopy at 1.3 with less than 200 jumps who cannot swoop to a stop within the size of a small room; wouldn't that cause you some concern about the size canopies they are using? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #19 June 23, 2004 QuoteI do not quite understand your reply... do you have to land exactly into a 2 meter circle during 25 jumps in order to become C-license holder or do youmerely have to fit into a 2 meter "corridor"? Your first point of contact (knee, toe, whatever) must be in a 2 meter circle. It doesn't matter if you finally touch down 100 meters later or need to run like heck after that. Realistically this means being within a 2 meter x however-far-you-can-swoop lane. Quote We have discussions around our license requirements; thus, as it was already said, one must lans within the circle in three consecutive certification jumps. As a rule, there are several people in one load doing those accuracy jumps. Firstly, they are trying to hit one target on relatively loaded canopies (1.3 or even higher) which, we think, may be dangerous. Secondly, while trying to land within a small target in order to meet certification requirements, a person can tend to flare to high or to low which can also be dangerous. If you can't satisfy the USPA pro-rating requirements on a few consecutive jumps (10M circle, stop before leaving, standup landing) you're not ready for the canopy. It's not a big deal at 1.3 or 1.5 with the appropriate experience which 200 jumps probably don't provide (300 and 500 respectively are a good rule of thumb). Quote Currently, there are hot disputes whether we should change our rules and set, e.g., 10 meter accuracy requirement or think about 2 meter corridor (not a circle to land). Landing areas of both shapes (narrow/long and smaller/more rectangular) exist in real life (roads and backyards). You need to be able to meet both accuracy requirements. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #20 June 23, 2004 Quote Most of the DZs here in the US have a big white "X" about 6-10 feet long. Over the course of one's progression, we do things to encourage hitting the "X"... But not everyone on the same load aims for it, I'd hope? The DZ I've done most of my jumps at has a nice square field with a 15' square blue tarp in the center. The AFFs generally aim for it, it's easy to establish the 20m req being met. 15m from the pickup van is a 1m square pvc pipe that the tandems usually aim for. Everyone else I believe just picks a spot in the viscinity of the van and lands. The most recent place I've been to just has a giant off field for the pre-B jumpers. No target at all. I haven't asked yet how it's done there, probably doesn't matter for me since I generally 10-20m on landings so far. I guess my question is: do people just eyeball each others landings and conclude that was good and pencil whip it, or does everyone just occasionally aim for the X since by then it's no big deal to hit the target on demand? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #21 June 23, 2004 QuoteI guess my question is: do people just eyeball each others landings and conclude that was good and pencil whip it, or does everyone just occasionally aim for the X since by then it's no big deal to hit the target on demand? Working backwards, I don't think accuracy comes without work. I think I got as good (or less-bad) as I am by wanting it and trying hard on many jumps. For my A and B license accuracies, nobody besides me really measured anything. (I gained notoriety for pacing off my landings early on. Now I feel my accuracy jumps for the "C" license are trusted because enough people have seen me come down on the "X" in the student field previously. But when I'm landing somewhere else and there isn't a target in a handy place, I have to find or make one before the jump. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #22 June 23, 2004 QuoteQuote Most of the DZs here in the US have a big white "X" about 6-10 feet long. But not everyone on the same load aims for it, I'd hope? Opening at sufficient altitude (3000 feet) gives you enough time to establish vertical separation from other canopies and avoid conflict even if you're landing in exactly the same spot. 6 fun jumpers, a pair of tandems, and the camera men all landing in the same 10M diameter pea pit are not a problem. You figure out what the other people are doing and do things to gain (brakes) or loose (I like a harness spiral) altitude relative to them. Most people try to land quicker. Land, move out of the way, and watch down-wind so you can avoid incoming traffic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nightjumps 1 #23 June 24, 2004 All good questions and conversation. Regarding your comment about... QuoteThe most recent place I've been to just has a giant off field for the pre-B jumpers. No target at all. I haven't asked yet how it's done there, probably doesn't matter for me since I generally 10-20m on landings so far. We put different color fisbees in the large field and surround them with a paint circle (one of our DZO's actually bought one of those lane painting things that you stick a can in). You can just use a can of spray paint while someone holds the appropriately measured string in the center of the frisbee whilst the person with the spray can walks in a circle. Oh yeah, flour works too, but the damn rain keeps making pancakes... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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slotperfect 7 #16 June 23, 2004 QuoteCan you tell how it organized on your dropzone? Is this a special instructor who always control who and how landed on the target? Or jumper must notify his instructor before jump if he plan to land in the target? From the USPA Skydivers' Information Manual (PRO Rating requirements): ". . . make all jumps in front of at least three witnesses, one of whom is an S&TA, Instructor/Examiner, or USPA National Director." All one has to do is organize his certifying official (it would be an S&TA at my DZ) ans witnesses before going up, pre-declare the jump as a PRO rating qualification jump, make first contact and land standing up in a 10 meter circle (the size of most pea gravel pits).Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
groza 0 #17 June 23, 2004 QuoteAll one has to do is organize his certifying official (it would be an S&TA at my DZ) ans witnesses before going up, pre-declare the jump as a PRO rating qualification jump, make first contact and land standing up in a 10 meter circle (the size of most pea gravel pits). Sorry... probably my question was not clear. I want to know how organized control of these 25 landings for C license? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #18 June 23, 2004 Groza, It's not an organized or dedicated thing that is done in the last 25 jumps of the 200 required to get the "C" license. The requirement is done over the course of all 200 jumps OR one should be able to land within six feet of the target (that's a twelveish foot circle) at least every 8 jumps. About the size of a small room. Most of the DZs here in the US have a big white "X" about 6-10 feet long. Over the course of one's progression, we do things to encourage hitting the "X"... We do fun "Hit & Chug" contests Have mini accuracy contests, etc. On a separate note; if you have folks who are loading a canopy at 1.3 with less than 200 jumps who cannot swoop to a stop within the size of a small room; wouldn't that cause you some concern about the size canopies they are using? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #19 June 23, 2004 QuoteI do not quite understand your reply... do you have to land exactly into a 2 meter circle during 25 jumps in order to become C-license holder or do youmerely have to fit into a 2 meter "corridor"? Your first point of contact (knee, toe, whatever) must be in a 2 meter circle. It doesn't matter if you finally touch down 100 meters later or need to run like heck after that. Realistically this means being within a 2 meter x however-far-you-can-swoop lane. Quote We have discussions around our license requirements; thus, as it was already said, one must lans within the circle in three consecutive certification jumps. As a rule, there are several people in one load doing those accuracy jumps. Firstly, they are trying to hit one target on relatively loaded canopies (1.3 or even higher) which, we think, may be dangerous. Secondly, while trying to land within a small target in order to meet certification requirements, a person can tend to flare to high or to low which can also be dangerous. If you can't satisfy the USPA pro-rating requirements on a few consecutive jumps (10M circle, stop before leaving, standup landing) you're not ready for the canopy. It's not a big deal at 1.3 or 1.5 with the appropriate experience which 200 jumps probably don't provide (300 and 500 respectively are a good rule of thumb). Quote Currently, there are hot disputes whether we should change our rules and set, e.g., 10 meter accuracy requirement or think about 2 meter corridor (not a circle to land). Landing areas of both shapes (narrow/long and smaller/more rectangular) exist in real life (roads and backyards). You need to be able to meet both accuracy requirements. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #20 June 23, 2004 Quote Most of the DZs here in the US have a big white "X" about 6-10 feet long. Over the course of one's progression, we do things to encourage hitting the "X"... But not everyone on the same load aims for it, I'd hope? The DZ I've done most of my jumps at has a nice square field with a 15' square blue tarp in the center. The AFFs generally aim for it, it's easy to establish the 20m req being met. 15m from the pickup van is a 1m square pvc pipe that the tandems usually aim for. Everyone else I believe just picks a spot in the viscinity of the van and lands. The most recent place I've been to just has a giant off field for the pre-B jumpers. No target at all. I haven't asked yet how it's done there, probably doesn't matter for me since I generally 10-20m on landings so far. I guess my question is: do people just eyeball each others landings and conclude that was good and pencil whip it, or does everyone just occasionally aim for the X since by then it's no big deal to hit the target on demand? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #21 June 23, 2004 QuoteI guess my question is: do people just eyeball each others landings and conclude that was good and pencil whip it, or does everyone just occasionally aim for the X since by then it's no big deal to hit the target on demand? Working backwards, I don't think accuracy comes without work. I think I got as good (or less-bad) as I am by wanting it and trying hard on many jumps. For my A and B license accuracies, nobody besides me really measured anything. (I gained notoriety for pacing off my landings early on. Now I feel my accuracy jumps for the "C" license are trusted because enough people have seen me come down on the "X" in the student field previously. But when I'm landing somewhere else and there isn't a target in a handy place, I have to find or make one before the jump. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #22 June 23, 2004 QuoteQuote Most of the DZs here in the US have a big white "X" about 6-10 feet long. But not everyone on the same load aims for it, I'd hope? Opening at sufficient altitude (3000 feet) gives you enough time to establish vertical separation from other canopies and avoid conflict even if you're landing in exactly the same spot. 6 fun jumpers, a pair of tandems, and the camera men all landing in the same 10M diameter pea pit are not a problem. You figure out what the other people are doing and do things to gain (brakes) or loose (I like a harness spiral) altitude relative to them. Most people try to land quicker. Land, move out of the way, and watch down-wind so you can avoid incoming traffic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #23 June 24, 2004 All good questions and conversation. Regarding your comment about... QuoteThe most recent place I've been to just has a giant off field for the pre-B jumpers. No target at all. I haven't asked yet how it's done there, probably doesn't matter for me since I generally 10-20m on landings so far. We put different color fisbees in the large field and surround them with a paint circle (one of our DZO's actually bought one of those lane painting things that you stick a can in). You can just use a can of spray paint while someone holds the appropriately measured string in the center of the frisbee whilst the person with the spray can walks in a circle. Oh yeah, flour works too, but the damn rain keeps making pancakes... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
