Landing Area Collision Accident

[kelpdiver 2]

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"and while the canopy flier should be spacing away from those on the ground, he has more limited range of motions." - please explain.

A person flying a canopy is moving in one direction - forward. They have ability to move left and right to a degree, and can slow their descent rate to a very limited degree. That degree can also be thrown off by an abrupt change in the winds. They cannot go backwards, nor up.

A person on the ground, however, has total mobility in the two dimensions, plus the ability to duck, and he can do so very quickly. So if he can take an action to avoid a collision, he should, even if the flier should have aimed and flown to a spot further away. What's really taken me about this sport is how helpful everyone tries to be to the new comers.

Motorists do this sort of thing every day, motivated mostly by self interest. It's not about fault, but not being dead right. Even if you can sue for damages, you rarely come out ahead for the experience.

[Shark 0]

Some of you may remember Landing Priorities from AFF.

1. Land in a straight line
2. Clear of obstacles
3. Into the wind
4. Accuracy

In this case a skydiver that has just landed is an obstacle. If you are in the landing pattern it is your responsibility to land clear of obstacles, or land elsewhere. I've seen a 200 jump person land too close to those that have just landed and his canopy hit that jumper. There were only 4 people in the landing area, and we have a pretty large grass area. Mr. 200 jump chump has since made another stupid landing move and has recently been reprimanded by the S&TA.

[bodypilot1 0]

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OK maybe I missed something but I can not for the life of me remember reading anything anywhere that it is your responsibility to after landing your canopy watch out for others that may not be paying attention and that could possibly hit you.

***
I'm sorry that you FJC Instuctor didn't explain everything he could to you in regards to your safty.
It's common sense to look "everywhere" if you were standing in the middle of a freeway, so to speak.
One of the major concerns on ANY bigway, where alot of people are landing in one area, that is gone over and over and over, is after you land, is to turn around and watch for other canopies as they land to AVOID a possible collision, and this is the responsibilty of BOTH jumpers to avoid.
It's truely sad that the outcome resulted in 2 people going to the hospital, but I bet MORE people will know that you should turn around and face the landing traffic as you gather up your canopy and dont assume everyone will avoid you, as people sometimes make mistakes.

Be safe.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[TALONSKY 0]

Yes, if I was on a big way or know that there are going to be alot of canopies around I would take extra care to look around on the ground. However, common sense would tell me that any competent skydiver can maneuver the canopy through use of those little yellow or red things call toggles to be alble to avoid a stationary object such as me picking up my canopy.
Kirk

[TALONSKY 0]

You know, Lisa, I just skimmed through the SIM and Instructors manual and can not find any where it states, after landing your parachute it is your responsibility to keep your eye out for other skydivers who may not be able to control where they land. When I get to work tomorrow I will do a word search in the SIM to see if I missed it ( I am sure if so many people feel it is the responsiblity of the landed jumper to make sure no other jumper hits them while landing, it must be in some literature somewhere).
Kirk

[FrogNog 1]

It takes two jumpers for a jumper on the ground to get hit by a jumper landing.

Everything else I could say, various people already have.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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My opinion is that an individual on the ground does not put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation by being proactive and moving a few steps out of the way, while a canopy flier can (especially someone with low numbers).

If a pilot with low jump #s does not have the confidence to make small adjustments under their wing they should UPSIZE!! That way, they will maybe gain confidence, and if nothing else, if/when they strick an object/person/whatnot it will be at a slow speed.

The jumper in question here was loading at 1.4 with 300 skydives over 8 years time! Unless he gained most of those in the past 2 years or less, he probably wasn't current enough to be jumping his canopy safely anyhow, and, he also decided not to pay attention to where he was going on FINAL approach! It is always important to watch where you're landing. Also, If he had time to brace himself by picking up his legs before kneeing the other guy in the back, then imo he had time enough to harness turn, or toggle turn and plf. He should know that at that speed it will hurt/injure to hit something/ someone.

Jumper #2 is at fault imo.

Angela.

[TALONSKY 0]

To some degree this is similar to a rearender in a car. While if the lead car could be more heads up and make sure the drive behind him has enough room to stop, it is the car that hits the rearend of the car in fronts fault always.

[LawnDart21 0]

A person flying a canopy can (turn) move in 360 degrees, and slow their decent rate as well. (A crosswind/downwind landing would be better than a collision.) The person on the ground is at 0ft AGL and will remain at 0ft AGL, that is a constant. My point is simply this. The landing canopy has the majority if not all of the ability to prevent this from happening. Despite it being a landed jumpers responsibility to observe other canopies, I know (for my dropzone atleast), I could land, and walk back to my hangar blindfolded without fear of getting hit. Why? because the canopy pilots I jump with have their heads on a swivel and at 50ft, 100ft, 200ft, 300ft, etc, are looking for potentail obstacles to avoid and planning/preparing to fly around them, to remove them from thier landing pattern. Is that true of everyone's landing technique? Of course the answer is NO, but SHOULD BE. This is a terrible acciident and I wish both a speedy recovery, lets just not let the obvious escape us in an effort to be non-judgemental, in that while we are all responsible for our own safety it is the LANDING canopy's responsibility to avoid the LANDED canopy. Any arguement to the contrary, or pawning off of responsibility to the LANDED canopy is simply absurd.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[TALONSKY 0]

You know and understand that people make mistakes when skydiving. You know and understand that sometimes those mistakes cause injury to others.

If you don't have the financial resources to support your family should something happen to you... perhaps you should choose not to skydive until such time as you either do have the resources or you no longer have the responsibilities?

_________________________________________________

I do not know too many people that have an extra $5000- $10000 laying around just incase someone else makes a mistake and puts them out of work for a while. However, I do know a large amount of people that live pay check to pay check only having a small (somewhere in the area of $100 - $300) amount of extra cash after paying bills. Now are you really sitting there telling me most of the people you know including yourself have that kind of money laying around as backup otherwise you would fall into the same category as I do(not having enough spare cash laying around to pay all your bills for a few months).



__________________________________________________
Why wait to be sued? Contact the other party immediately. Talk to them. You may be able to work something out. Why bring lawyers and courts into something that might not require them?

__________________________________________________

Once again I like most people I know do not have a spare $5000 to $10000 plus, lying around incase of an emergency. The only thing I could call and do for the other skydiver would call and try to set up a payment plan, which my guess would be not good enough and would end up in lawyers hands anyway.

Kirk

[skybytch 273]

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Now are you really sitting there telling me most of the people you know including yourself have that kind of money laying around as backup otherwise you would fall into the same category as I do(not having enough spare cash laying around to pay all your bills for a few months).

No. But many people I know have insurance - health to cover the medical bills, disability to cover the time off work, homeowner's to cover personal liability and life just in case the worst happens. They've taken care of their financial responsibilities should something happen to them.

Personally I can't afford any of that. I live paycheck to paycheck, always have. But I spent 9 months out of one 12 month period not working due to injury. My then-employer paid health insurance covered almost all of my medical bills. State provided disability insurance (premiums for which are mandatory payroll deductions) paid my other bills - this was in California though; I don't know if other states have the same type of program. So even though I live paycheck to paycheck and I was unable to work for nine months my basic bills still got paid and I'm not carrying a load of debt from medical bills.

I don't have any insurance right now... which is why I jump a big boring canopy, am picky about the conditions I jump in, keep my head on a swivel until I'm back in the packing area, etc. Should I get hurt despite all my efforts to stay safe - my bad. Even if the injury is someone else's "fault."

[StearmanR985 0]

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To some degree this is similar to a rearender in a car. While if the lead car could be more heads up and make sure the drive behind him has enough room to stop, it is the car that hits the rearend of the car in fronts fault always.

Actually there are drivers that do pay attention to the rear view mirror to avoid a collision from behind. If I have to make a sudden stop that is exactly what I do. Just because it means that it would be the other guys fault for rearending someone does not mean the person in front shouldn't make an attempt to avoid a collision if at all possible.

This comparison you have made is invalid. A skydiver on the ground can easily move (or at least make the attempt to) out of the way of in coming traffic providing they are looking out for canopies landing.

It is really quite simple, if you are in the LZ your head needs to be on a swivel, you do not have the right to ignore incoming canopies. We should not be trying to pass off responsibilty to "the other guy".

Jeff

[TALONSKY 0]

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To some degree this is similar to a rearender in a car. While if the lead car could be more heads up and make sure the drive behind him has enough room to stop, it is the car that hits the rearend of the car in fronts fault always.

Actually there are drivers that do pay attention to the rear view mirror to avoid a collision from behind. If I have to make a sudden stop that is exactly what I do. Just because it means that it would be the other guys fault for rearending someone does not mean the person in front shouldn't make an attempt to avoid a collision if at all possible.

This comparison you have made is invalid. A skydiver on the ground can easily move (or at least make the attempt to) out of the way of in coming traffic providing they are looking out for canopies landing.

It is really quite simple, if you are in the LZ your head needs to be on a swivel, you do not have the right to ignore incoming canopies. We should not be trying to pass off responsibilty to "the other guy".

Jeff

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Your right we should not try to pass off responsibilty to "other guy". Jumper #2 was not paying any attention to where he was as he was coming in for a landing, " it is totally his fault". Yes, jumper #1 could have been more heads up and looked for incoming canopies, but it is grossly negligent of jumper #2 to not be paying attention at all to where he is landing.
I guess you are right that it is an invalid analogy with the cars
Kirk

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[chuckbrown 0]

While I would agree that #2's flying was extremely incompetent, I don't know if it would arise to the level of gross negligence. Maybe, maybe not. #1 definitely should have been paying attention to incoming traffic, though. I don't think #1 is "at fault" here, but he could have avoided a trip to the hospital if he'd been looking out for landing canopies. I ALWAYS look for incoming traffic when I land whether it's a 182 load or a turbine load. This accident was so stupid and so easily avoidable. I hope both heal and others learn.

[billvon 3,080]

>It is really quite simple, if you are in the LZ your head needs to be on a
>swivel, you do not have the right to ignore incoming canopies.

I agree 100% - however -

>A skydiver on the ground can easily move (or at least make the attempt
>to) out of the way of in coming traffic providing they are looking out for
>canopies landing.

The best thing to do if you see a canopy headed towards you, IMO, is yell and perhaps duck/lean/move six inches. I would recommend that people don't dart across the LZ while other people are landing, even if you're trying to avoid a canopy. People under canopy can avoid stationary targets; they can't avoid randomly moving ones.

The paradigm should be that jumpers land and don't move until the airspace near them is clear; that way other jumpers can see and avoid (and they are going a lot faster than you can run.) If you do absolutely have to move, it should be the minimum you need to move.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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The best thing to do if you see a canopy headed towards you, IMO, is yell and perhaps duck/lean/move six inches. I would recommend that people don't dart across the LZ while other people are landing, even if you're trying to avoid a canopy. People under canopy can avoid stationary targets; they can't avoid randomly moving ones.

Yep, obviously I try not to aim for people in the landing area, but they are far easier to avoid if they aren't darting around like panic'd animals. Lay down or duck but please dont run left or right. Just makes it harder to avoid you.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[kelpdiver 2]

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A person flying a canopy can (turn) move in 360 degrees, and slow their decent rate as well. (A crosswind/downwind landing would be better than a collision.) The person on the ground is at 0ft AGL and will remain at 0ft AGL, that is a constant. My point is simply this. The landing canopy has the majority if not all of the ability to prevent this from happening.

By the time a collision is imminent (we already can agree that they screwed up on their appoach pattern), they no longer have the ability to move 360 degrees, and their flexibility with descent rate is compromised as well. By the time the situation exists, the person on the ground is in a much better position to make it not happen.

You look for red light runners before entering an intersection, no? If you see any, you wait before proceeding, even if it's their fault, no? As a motorcyclist I spend considerable energy compensating for distracted cagers. Why? I pay the greater price in any incident.

I'm not saying to ignore individuals at fault, but you should also be looking for any process improvements available. This one is easier than most to solve.

[kimemerson 7]

Hello, I’m jumper #1. One bit of info not known that may or may not matter or make a difference: I had not done a stand up landing but geek slid in and was laughing all the way. I ended the landing lying down. And still laughing. I stood up where I was, facing whatever direction I ended the landing in. I didn’t rotate myself while still on all fours, for example, to be able to stand up facing oncoming traffic. After I stood up, a member of the team I was videoing looked across the lz and signed a thumbs up “ok?”. I thumbs upped an “all ok” response and began getting my stuff together. Even when we are keeping our heads on swivels there are seconds in which we are not. In my case it was when I was trying to undo my slider from its bungee keeper and was having a hard time of it. It took me a few seconds longer than it should have and more or less kept me facing downwards as I leaned my head forward to get to the back of my rig. I accept that maybe this part of the procedure could be done off field, but - and this could change real soon – I am one of those who does a lot on the field before walking off. I stow my toggles. I remove chest and leg straps and I will often but not always take off my helmet. I also undo the slider retainer to slide the slider back up as I gather the lines. None of this usually takes very long but in this case I was taking longer than usual as I was having difficulty. I do often pay attention to all the traffic. As a former S&TA and AFF Instructor I have taught this part a zillion times. But I seriously doubt we could come up with even a slim majority who does it all the time on every landing. You jump with someone, land and then find your jump partner across the lz and start right away talking the jump. Someone else rolls in and you look to see if they’re either ok or good laugh material. You kneel down to roll up your booties, bend over to pick up your helmet, didn’t land in a stand up yourself and are just getting up. There are a hundred reasons and as many instances when are not gluing our eyes to the oncoming traffic and we are all there at one time or another. And in my case, all it took was a second of not noticing, a second I share with all of us. Yep, just about one whole second. Also, I believe that we who have been around a while do have a peripheral awareness so that even when not looking directly, we can ascertain that there’s stuff a-coming. It isn’t a perfect tool, peripheral awareness, but it’s a tool beyond ignorance. So, yes, the sage advice is to keep your head on a swivel, eyes up, face oncoming traffic, but you’re not going to do it 100% of every jump. Just ain’t going to happen.
Also, doesn’t it make sense to work on establishing your landing area and its situation as soon as possible and not as late as you can get away with? Shouldn’t one be taking all factors to determine where, what direction, with what group, away from what obstacles one will be landing? What element of surprise is allowed when we are in a sport demanding full preparedness and awareness? Myself, I start about as soon as I know I have a good canopy and have determined whether I'm making it to the dz. Then I begin learning what I can about the traffic and areas of congestion below. For example, the Knights train at the Ranch each summer and by now I know they tend to land in one 9way cluster, so that if I see one gold & black U.S, Army parachute down, I'll be seeing at least eight and maybe 9 or 10 total all in that same area. I then conclude that tey've claimed it, it's their's, stay away.
Aside from all that, thanks for the well wishing from you all, too. I am healing. And I will see the sky real soon.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hey There,

Good to see you posting. Thanks for a informative post too!

There's definately a distinction between the text book and what actually happens out in the field.

I hope you heal up soon.

Blue skies,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team