Landing Area Collision Accident

[slug 1]

Hi Folks

I read the report in the incident forum about the subject "accident".

Based on the report it appears that jumper #2 the guy who was to busy watching his wife under canopy to look where he was going to land was using poor judgement.

This poor judgement resulted in jumper #2 doing a double knee strike into the back of Jumper #1 who had already landed. Jumper #1 was air evac. out due to life threatening injuries.

I realise jumper #1 should have had his head on a swivel since he was still in the landing area, however IMO the lack of basic lack attention by jumper #2 during landing was the major cause of this incident.

Any opinions on what action if any should be taken against jumper #2.

Loss of USPA membership
Pay jumper #1's expenses
Civil suit
Other

Please don't preach to me about the urban legend that skydivers don't sue skydivers. Skydiver 2, IMO is a danger to other skydivers and not worthy of having a liscense or USPA membership.

The extent of physical injury to skydiver #1 and the financial loss he will incur due to time off from work due to his life threatening injury at this time is unknown.

Since this is the begining of the season I'm afraid we're going to see more of these incidents, If there reported.

R.I.P.

[skybytch 273]

I don't think making a mistake, even if it hurts another person, makes jumper #2 unworthy of having a license or unworthy of being a USPA member. Shit happens. Most honest experienced skydivers will gladly tell you about the time they fucked up and got lucky (or didn't get so lucky). We all sign the waiver. The jump isn't over til you're back in the packing area. You aren't safe until you're back home on your couch.

If jumper #2 was known to not pay attention under canopy, or was otherwise considered to be an accident waiting to happen, I might think differently.

Regardless, I'd expect to be paying jumper #1's (the person on the ground) medical bills for many years to come if I were jumper #2. But if I were jumper #1 I'd take at least some responsibility for the incident on myself and not let the other jumper pay all my bills.

[bodypilot1 0]

As skybytch said, everyone signed the waiver, and if there are people that are that dangerous on your DZ maybe the S&TA should have spoken to them.
Everyone fucks up sometimes, and if it's correct that jumper #1 took both knees to the back after landing, was he running out of #2's way? or just standing there facing the wrong direction after landing and not looking at the other canopies landing as he should have been.
You not safe till your in the hanger.
Hopefully he will make a full recovery and heal fast.
Best wishes to him.
-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[diablopilot 2]

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You not safe till your in the hanger.

You talking about the new hanger or the old one?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[slug 1]

Hi Skybytch

Thanks for your response. I was expecting more heat and flames but we'll see what developes.

I agree shit happens and skydiver #1 was partially at fault but imo this was really stupid shit. We're not talking tracking after a big way etc. Landing in a crowd etc.

Skydiver #2 (poor judgement) was a visiting jumping with 300jumps/8yr's jumping a canopy loaded 1.4, performing a straight in approach.

Since Jumper #2 was just passing thru the DZ I doubt if we'll know about the guys/wifes track record.How current he was or what type of jump they were on. Since jumper #2 was busy watching wife under canopy just befor landing maybe he was her coach.

Best wishs for the poor guy who got blind sided. Hope you have a speedy recovery
R.I.P.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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I don't think........

Bad form to start off with those words. They could be taken out of context.

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Shit happens.

Shit Happens is what people that do not know what happened say about what happened to them or others.

The incident mentioned by RIP was definitely a deterministic event. Today, most, if not 100% of jumpers, use steerable parachutes.

The incident reminds me of two other incidents.

1. Guy packing in the packing area. Some other guy crashes into him on landing. The first guy had to get a heart valve put in because of the collision.

2. Guy has a cutaway-pull reserve type jump. His wife, also on the load, watchs her hubby cutaway and pull reserve. Ok fine. Next thing that happens is that she runs into his cutaway canopy. Whoaaa! She cuts away and pulls reserve. Such excitment in one family on one day.

Pay attention.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[bodypilot1 0]

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You talking about the new hanger or the old one?

You havent been to Lodi in sometime Grasshopper....
Both have been metal hangers for sometime.
-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[bodypilot1 0]

Accident Synopsis:
An experienced skydiver had successfully landed in the center of the designated landing area and was gathering his parachute when he was struck by a second experienced skydiver. The landing area was not congested and there were no significant meteorological concerns. The second jumper reported that he had been distracted in his approach while watching his wife fly her canopy, and did not see the first jumper until it was too late to avoid the collision. The first jumper, who had been stationary for almost a minute, was looking at his own equipment and did not see the approaching canopy prior to impact. The second jumper had made about 300 skydives over roughly eight years and was flying a Stiletto 170 loaded at 1.44. This was his first jump at a new drop zone. His approach was described as straight in, with a bit of a toggle turn near the ground. Witnesses said he lifted his legs just prior to impact and struck the first jumper with his knees.

The first jumper suffered extensive life threatening injuries and was transported by medevac helicopter. The second jumper suffered a serious back injury. Both jumpers are expected to recover.

***
Lets hope they BOTH learn from this?

-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[StearmanR985 0]

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Lets hope they BOTH learn from this?

Many of us can learn from this I think or at least use it as a simple reminder. I have allowed myself to get distracted once I was on the ground while canopies are still in the air. Sometimes I think I have Skydiving ADD, if there is such a thing.

Anyhow, I am sorry for the incident but it is a good reminder, at least for me, to pay attention, always.

Jeff

[Brian425 0]

I had a very similar thing happen to me 2 weeks ago. It was at the same DZ as this one; but, this is not common for the Ranch. It just seems like a coincidence.

Here is my post and feelings about it.

http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1113639;#1113639

As the jumper still under canopy, I have control and the ability to make adjustments. I did not do my job. I made a mistake.

If I had hurt the other person, I would be devastated. That is my single greatest fear in this sport. If I hurt someone, I would do what I could to help them out.

I would not expect to be sued. We all know it's dangerous out there. Mistakes and strange things happen. If I was the injured jumper, I would not sue. I am aware of the dangers out there and I accept them.

The punishment should be relative to the incident. A one time mistake does not warrant the loss of license or USPA membership. Civil suit, probably would not win. The signed waiver and the jumper on the ground has the duty to be aware of other people landing. Pay expenses, who can afford that. Not to sound flippant; but, simple surgery can easily be $25k. I think that the real answer is to be decent and honest. Help as much as you are able.

Bottom line, this is a dangerous sport. If you cannot acceppt ALL the risks associated with skydiving, don't go to the DZ.

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[gemini 0]

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Pay expenses, who can afford that. Not to sound flippant; but, simple surgery can easily be $25k. I think that the real answer is to be decent and honest. Help as much as you are able.

Are you saying you would help with the other jumper's expenses or walk away?

Blue skies,

Jim

[Brian425 0]

IF it was 100% my fault and I had money, I would help financially as best I could. If I did not have $$$, I would try to help them out by running errands or taking them to doctors appointments, etc.

I would never just "walk away" I said help as much as you are able. I stand by what I said 'If you cannot accept ALL the risks of skydiving, don't go to the DZ."

If you hit a jumper, it is most likely a friend or someone you know. I personally could not and would not sue. It's just what I believe.

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[LawnDart21 0]

Slug, can you enplain this?:

"I agree shit happens and skydiver #1 was partially at fault"

Having not witnessed the accident, my only assumption here (correct me if I am wrong) is that Skydiver#1 landed, and was stationary while grabbing his gear up (read as not walking back to the hangar yet). I'm failing to see the "fault" of skydiver #1. Head on a swivel? Most people look "down" as they collect their gear. Nothing pisses me off more on a DZ than hearing a landing canopy yell "Look out" to someone on the ground. If you are still in the air, you can STEER away from things. I hope jumper #1 is okay, and if someone can please explain to me his "partial fault" with more than just "he should have had his head on a swivel-B.S., I would greatly appreciate it,

Muchos gracias.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[larsrulz 0]

My opinion is that an individual on the ground does not put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation by being proactive and moving a few steps out of the way, while a canopy flier can (especially someone with low numbers). This is of course not to say that the jumper on the ground was at fault, but I believe that one should always be aware when on the landing area, so in that respect the jumper on the ground moving out of the way could have easily kept this problem from happening.

That aside, I wish both individuals a speedy recovery...such incidents are always unfortunate.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[slug 1]

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Slug, can you enplain this?:

"I agree shit happens and skydiver #1 was partially at fault"

Having not witnessed the accident, my only assumption here (correct me if I am wrong) is that Skydiver#1 landed, and was stationary while grabbing his gear up (read as not walking back to the hangar yet). I'm failing to see the "fault" of skydiver #1. Head on a swivel? Most people look "down" as they collect their gear. Nothing pisses me off more on a DZ than hearing a landing canopy yell "Look out" to someone on the ground. If you are still in the air, you can STEER away from things. I hope jumper #1 is okay, and if someone can please explain to me his "partial fault" with more than just "he should have had his head on a swivel-B.S., I would greatly appreciate it,

Muchos gracias.

Hi Lawndart

I didn't witness the incident either and my comments are based on the info supplied in the incident report.

IMO the reason a lot of folks yell "look out" to people on the ground is because the jumper getting ready to land isn't sure what direction the jumper on the ground is going to start walking, could be back to the packing area, could be in the opposite direction to talk with their friends that were on the same load etc.

I agree at some landing area's there shouldn't be any reason for people to land that close to someone else on the ground. At some DZ's everyone wants to land as close to the packing area as possiable, or the peas
Like some other people have responded in this thread the jump isn't over until your in a safe place.
It's kind of like defensive driving, unless you know everyone on the load and their abilities, some people get "confused" due to advanced age/meds new driver (driving car), Jumpers: new DZ, non current, Asshat etc, hot dogs etc.

IMO the jumpers in the landing area have to look in all directions after landing because some folks under canopy don't understand the concept of everyone landing in the same direction, even if there's no wind, or the wind has done a 180 after T.O.

In response to Make it Happen's comment about the guy getting thumped in the packing area requiring open heart surgery. At the DZ where we used to jump a lot of folks used to pack behind the beer line, I didn't feel comfortable doing this but based on my defensive driving theory I packed in the same area but under a very large tree

I'd still be interested in knowing the asshats track record and if anyone contacted his home DZ to notify them of the incident.? There's always the red ink in the logbook option
IOW keep your head on a swivel because this dumbshit might be jumping with you on the next load

R.I.P.
Or are we just to busy and shit happens?

[tombuch 0]

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If you are still in the air, you can STEER away from things. I hope jumper #1 is okay, and if someone can please explain to me his "partial fault" with more than just "he should have had his head on a swivel-B.S., I would greatly appreciate it,

Obviously, the guy flying the parachute has an obligation to avoid anybody already on the ground. However, mistakes happen, and I'd rather not be on the receiving end of a collision.

My procedure has always been to land, turn around and stay put while watching approaching canopies. I use that time to lift up one side of my frap hat to improve hearing, and I reset my breaks. I try to stay focused on traffic, and try not to look down for more than a second or two. I start walking when the coast is clear. Once in a while I forget to turn around, or get caught up in talking with other jumpers on the walk back while tandems or other canopies are still landing. I think we all blow it in that regard at least occasionally. Heck, as I watched jumpers over the weekend I saw at least half walking through the landing area without looking for canopy traffic.

The point is that we should all use this opportunity to refocus on proactive safety procedures. We should all re-double our efforts to watch for landing parachutes. This kind of accident can really happen to anybody, but we each have the power to reduce the risk.

Let's be "head's up.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[skybytch 273]

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IOW keep your head on a swivel because this dumbshit might be jumping with you on the next load

On the load after that you or I just might be "that dumbshit."

Everyone who has never, not even once, screwed up on a skydive please stand up.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Having not witnessed the accident, my only assumption here (correct me if I am wrong) is that Skydiver#1 landed, and was stationary while grabbing his gear up (read as not walking back to the hangar yet). I'm failing to see the "fault" of skydiver #1. Head on a swivel?

There's being right, and then there's being DEAD right. Don't want to be #2 and while the canopy flier should be spacing away from those on the ground, he has more limited range of motions.

In a more general sense, every jumper should have suitable medical coverage. While you shouldn't have to pay for recklessness in others, you have to expect people to make mistakes and they could have unpleasant consequences.

[LawnDart21 0]

"and while the canopy flier should be spacing away from those on the ground, he has more limited range of motions." - please explain.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[LawnDart21 0]

Almost forgot, we (tandems) usually land before fun jumpers, and if the fun jumpers are coming down as we are leaving the field, I have my student and myself take a knee to the ground and stay put looking up at the canopies until everyone is on the ground. Now if a canopy STILL flew into us at that point, and we were forced to move out of its way, then I would say, yes, someone that bad at canopy flying shouldnt be in the air.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[TALONSKY 0]

OK maybe I missed something but I can not for the life of me remember reading anything anywhere that it is your responsibility to after landing your canopy watch out for others that may not be paying attention and that could possibly hit you. I do remember reading low and slow has the right of way, Ok jumper #1 is on the ground so he is lower that jumper #2 and jumper #1 is stationary lastly jumper #2 is still moving which makes jump #1 have the right of way( yes if jumper #1 was being proactive he would look around for others). If someone hit me after I landed and I had to be hospitalized for a while you bet your ass I would sue them, “IT IS TOTALLY THEIR FAULT”. Oh, just because I sign a waiver that only protects the DZO, Pilot and instructors only does not absolve people from having been soo negligent that they should not be sued.
I can not believe people are actually saying it was the jumpers who had landed fault, that is totally ridiculous.
Kirk

[skybytch 273]

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OK maybe I missed something but I can not for the life of me remember reading anything anywhere that it is your responsibility to after landing your canopy watch out for others that may not be paying attention and that could possibly hit you.

Really? I remember being told that way back when I first started jumping. Skydive isn't over til you're back in the packing area - and I'm responsible for myself and all risks associated with my skydive.

Would you stand in the middle of an aircraft runway and not be looking to see if there was a plane about to take off or land? If you were standing there not looking for traffic and a plane hit you, is it the pilot's fault?

I can't understand anyone not looking around for canopies headed their direction when standing in the landing area - ie an active runway for parachutes...

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If someone hit me after I landed and I had to be hospitalized for a while you bet your ass I would sue them

Ever make a mistake on a skydive that could have hurt someone?

[TALONSKY 0]

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OK maybe I missed something but I can not for the life of me remember reading anything anywhere that it is your responsibility to after landing your canopy watch out for others that may not be paying attention and that could possibly hit you.

Really? I remember being told that way back when I first started jumping. Skydive isn't over til you're back in the packing area - and I'm responsible for myself and all risks associated with my skydive.

Would you stand in the middle of an aircraft runway and not be looking to see if there was a plane about to take off or land? If you were standing there not looking for traffic and a plane hit you, is it the pilot's fault?

I can't understand anyone not looking around for canopies headed their direction when standing in the landing area - ie an active runway for parachutes...
________________________________________________

I said read anywhere, yes you should keep a look out for others. And unless your an idiot, you would look both ways around the runway which is taught in the first jump course. It is the responsiblity of each skydiver to look out for the lower and slower which have the right of way. Now if I am on the ground, I expect that any skydiver above me to be able to land without hitting me. ( or they should not have a license to skydive)


_________________________________________________-

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If someone hit me after I landed and I had to be hospitalized for a while you bet your ass I would sue them

Ever make a mistake on a skydive that could have hurt someone?

The reality of life is most of us are less than one months wages away from losing things. If because of GROSS negligence on a skydivers part, Yes I would sue them(because I will not lose my families home over someone else mistake). To answer your question, of course I have made skydiving mistakes and if I ever did something that put another in the hospital I would expect to be sued. Skydiver loyalty will go out the window in face of losing everything you own because of gross negligence on another skydivers part

[Fast 0]

I don't know about this whole argument. Honestly a person on the ground has a LOT more control over thier situation than a person in the air does. In aviation right of way goes to landing aircraft over those on the ground. I don't think that jumper2 is clear of responsibility for where he is going but I think everyone shares responsibility here.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[skybytch 273]

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The reality of life is most of us are less than one months wages away from losing thing. If because of GROSS negligence on a skydivers part, Yes I would sue them because I will not lose my families home over someone else mistake.

You know and understand that people make mistakes when skydiving. You know and understand that sometimes those mistakes cause injury to others.

If you don't have the financial resources to support your family should something happen to you... perhaps you should choose not to skydive until such time as you either do have the resources or you no longer have the responsibilities?

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To answer your question of course I have made skydiving mistakes and if I ever did something that put another in the hospital I would expect to be sued.

Why wait to be sued? Contact the other party immediately. Talk to them. You may be able to work something out. Why bring lawyers and courts into something that might not require them?