PAC 750XL -- News Clips

[AndyMan 7]

I know of an Otter hit by a group attemting to launch a raft.

That said, I am concerned about the tail, as I am concerned about King Air tails. I'll reserve judgment until I can see one firsthand, though.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[mikkey 0]

I agree we have to always be aware of the stabilizers if we exit a plane from a side door no matter which plane.
We had a fatality in Australia this year where a Japanese visitor hit the tail of a Caravan in Perth on a solo jump. The jumper died of his head injuries in spite of wearing a helmet. (Cypres activated reserve)

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[sdctlc 0]

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it costs about 1,000,000$NZ so it's quite probably a very inexpensive aircraft for the ppl in the USA

Rates as of 2003.12.24 14:47:30 GMT.

$1,000,000.00 NZD
New Zealand Dollars
=
$647,642.80 USD
United States Dollars
1 NZD = 0.647643 USD

(1 USD = 1.54406 NZD)

Scott C

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[diablopilot 2]

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I know of 5 Caravan tail hits by cameraflyers. That's 5 too many IMO.

So does that means the Caravan is a bad aircraft for skydiving?

I don't think the problem lies with the Airframe.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

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I don't think the problem lies with the Airframe.

Noooo, you're not saying that it could have been people's fault?


If the pilot has the plane in the wrong attitude and someone launches wrong, you can hit the tail of just about any side door aircraft. Moral of the story, have well trained pilots and don't fuck up. Looking at the specs for the PAC, it looks like its going to be a really good plane for the jump industry. Its going to get smaller DZs into turbine aircraft easier and cheaper, IMHO it can only help the sport grow. Also, looking at the distance from the door to the tail...well, I think you're going to have to work to hit it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ltdiver 3]

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I know of 5 Caravan tail hits by cameraflyers. That's 5 too many IMO.

So does that means the Caravan is a bad aircraft for skydiving?

I don't think the problem lies with the Airframe.

I think you miss my point, JP.

When you have a 'hazard' that is just a bit closer than another aircraft you're used to (read: experienced 4-way teams) then you have to be a bit more careful -not- to launch your...say...unipod exit quite to high....and a cameraflyer needs to be aware that he/she -might- need to vary their exit as well.

I'm sure this aircraft is going to be a fantastic boone to the industry. I'm just not sure that it'll be the prime aircraft for any serious competitive teams.

(note: if a skydiver jumps from -any- aircraft they need to be aware of the structure of that aircraft and how to exit from it. If the tail is a bit closer, then -don't- leap up and back with big wings on... ).

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[diverdriver 7]

Purpose built? If it was purpose built it would not have a horizontal tail in the direct line of fire from a premature deployment.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[DanglesOZQld 0]

Well lets just build one without a tail then shall we??? If it is possible to rip the whole ass end off a caravan with a premmie then you can pretty much be assured that it is possible in most aircraft. Yeah , a tailgate would be nice as would a CASA over here but we are not all living in the US of A now are we? BSBD -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I believe Chris's point was that it would have been MUCH smarter to build the plane with a T-tail. This, assuming the plane being "purposely built" for skydiving.

[quade 4]

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I believe Chris's point was that it would have been MUCH smarter to build the plane with a T-tail. This, assuming the plane being "purposely built" for skydiving.

There are issues with building T-tails. For instance, they can (usually do) have reduced elevator effectiveness at slow airspeeds. This would reduce the aircraft's usefulness at unimproved airstrips. They are also more complex in the control linkages and carry a weight penalty in the more beefed up tail structure.

While this particular variant of the 750XL could be said to be purpose built for skydiving operations with the addition of the door mods, ect., the overall usefulness of the entire line would be compromised quite a bit by trading out the standard tail for a T.

When designing anything that flys -- everything is a trade off.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pilotdave 0]

I don't believe for a second this plane was designed specifically for skydiving. It was designed as a light cargo aircraft, which is initially being marketed to skydiving operations. It's pretty easy (as we see every time we jump) to convert a cargo aircraft into a skydiving aircraft. But if they were designing a purpose built skydiving aircraft, there's no way they'd put the stabilizer right there. T-tails do have disadvantages, but they also have advantages and there are other options too.

Dave

[quade 4]

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. . . and there are other options too.

Well, you're right! I suppose they could use redirected bleed air from the turbine.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Deuce 1]

I've got a lot of camera step jumps out of the same Caravan(s) that Perris JP jumped. If the plane is flying really slow, the tail is not that much of a problem. My 206 pilot flies the plane right at the stall horn when I do wingsuit jumps, and the tail is horizontally below me at exit, but it's no issue cause I fall off the step almost vertically at that speed.

On any aircraft if somebody jumps up they are going to get in trouble.

But almost all of my 700+ jumps are from King Airs and Caravans.

[Dumpster 0]

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. . . and there are other options too.

Well, you're right! I suppose they could use redirected bleed air from the turbine.

Are we talking BLC (Boundary Layer Control) like the older F-4's had?

[quade 4]

I was thinking more along the line of the puffer jets on the AV-8B.

However, to be realistic, a conventional tail is probably the most efficient way of controlling this type of aircraft. Far safer too if the engine cuts out.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pilotdave 0]

If someone was designing a skydiving aircraft from scratch, they wouldn't put a low horizontal stabilizer right behind the door. The Cresco style design, low tail or t-tail, probably could have been improved on for a skydiving specific aircraft.

Course there are other tail options that coulda gotten the tail higher up... cruciform, v-tail, etc. Not saying the way it is isn't any good, just saying it's not the ideal solution.

Dave

[quade 4]

Again, I'm not saying they designed the 750XL from scratch to be used exclusively for skydiving, but rather they designed a good all around generic utility aircraft and have several variants -- one of which -is- specifically for the skydiving market.

V-tail? Really? What do you wanna do? Make me airsick?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pilotdave 0]

Hehe i didn't say it was a good idea...just higher.
Maybe a simpler solution to the whole low tail problem is some padding.
Dave

[DanglesOZQld 0]

Bad enough with a bloody T tail on something like a Piper Arrow compared to a conventional tail. There are always tradeoffs with aircraft design....shit they haven't even made a video camera from the ground up for us yet that was "just" for skydivers.......deal with it and judge it after you jump it. BSBD -Mark. How many Prima Donna jumpers out there know what a Cessna 182 is???

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[skydog 2]

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How many Prima Donna jumpers out there know what a Cessna 182 is???

Me me me me!!! is it me?

Aren't they great, especially when you can get a 6ft 4" man stuck in one when doing tandems.

They are what I call "skydiving at the coalface" aircraft.

Bryn

Journey not destination.....

[Dumpster 0]

Looking at the drawings, the relationship between the tail and the door doesn't seem to be too bad. Yeah, maybe a foot or two higher would have been nicer, but I doubt that jumpers striking the tail will be a big problem. Always a trade-off.

I'll jump anything that gets me high enough-

Come to think of it, I think I'll grab my gear bag and go jump a Cessna this morning!

[lowie 0]

In my limited jumping experience I've enjoyed going out of a tail gate the most and it seems to me to be the easiest way to launch 8+ ways. Is there any time that a side door is an advantage? If not I'd say any purpose built skydiving plane would have to have a tail gate - safer and easier.

[pilotdave 0]

I did AFF out of a 182 and king air so I don't really know, but watching videos of AFF out of a tailgate just looks more difficult... or at least scarier.

Tailgates have a lot of advantages for a skydiving or especially a cargo aircraft, but they are usually a lot dragier because of the sharp upsweep angle of the rear end, and they can have center of gravity issues since jumpers are able to gather at the far end of the tail. The bigger planes usually have more aft fuselage behind the tailgate. Ever seen the UNUSABLE space in a C-5's fuselage behind the door? It's about as big as a C-130's cargo hold... at least almost.

Dave

[freakyrat 1]

The aircraft crashed off the coast of California today due to a fuel problem. The article about it is on www.landings.com



Chris

[quade 4]

Oh my god. That's horrible.

Story

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New Zealand pilot killed on delivery flight to California

27.12.2003
1.20pm - By MARTIN JOHNSTON

A New Zealand pilot died today when the plane he was delivering to the United States crashed into the sea, about 480km off the California coast.

Kelvin Stark, 58, of Tauranga, was ferrying one of the new Pacific Aerospace Corporation 750XL planes, made in Hamilton, to the US.

His wife, April, said she was told of the tragedy at about 3am by a US radio operator who had been in contact with her husband and had telephoned her.

Mr Stark's brother-in-law, Mike Fletcher, said Mr Stark was alone in the plane, which had apparently ditched in the sea and flipped after a fuel problem.

He was to have left from Hamilton Airport on December 19, but was delayed until Tuesday and made several stops on the delivery flight, the last in Hawaii.

"The Coastguard have confirmed Kelvin is still inside the aircraft but the seas are very heavy."

Divers had jumped into the water from a helicopter, but had so far been unable to retrieve Mr Stark's body as the seas were too rough, Mr Fletcher said.

US reports said Air Force parajumpers found the lifeless man strapped in the cockpit of the plane.

Mr Fletcher understood that Mr Stark's plane was either low on fuel or developed a fuel-transfer problem involving one of the fuel tanks inside the plane.

Mrs Stark said she hoped the plane would remain floating until the seas calmed enough for her husband's body to be removed.

"It's pretty tough. I've already been down this track before." Her first husband, who was also a pilot, died in a plane crash more than a decade ago.

She said Mr Stark specialised in ferry flying. "Ferry flying is a risky job. We always knew that. I'm a pilot as well so I know what's involved in it, but when it's in your blood that's what you do."

Pacific Aerospace has sold 18 of its PAC 750XL planes, a short take-off and landing aircraft originally based on a topdresser.

The company says it is the first passenger plane designed and made in New Zealand and the first new aircraft built in the last 25 years specifically for the adventure parachuting market. It can lift 17 fully-kitted skydivers to 11,811 feet in 12 minutes. It is also considered suitable for other purposes, including cargo, sightseeing, medical and military uses.

Executives at the company could not be immediately reached today, but on Monday, general manager John McWilliam said it had delivered one of its new planes to its Californian distributor, Woodland Utility Aircraft, and that this was the first overseas sale of the aircraft.

It appears that this may be the aircraft Mr Stark flew.

-More-

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/7576848.htm

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver