The "maybe you should try bowling" talk....

[scientist_chick 0]

Isn't the whole point of the AFF to learn how to be a good skydiver (emphasis on the word learn!). I can understand giving the talk to somebody who should know better (ie someone who is already qualified)---seems a bit harsh to me to have a go at the students!! It's not much of a comfort that when I do my AFF people like you guys will be "giving me the talk" if I don't cut the mustard straight away!!

There's enough pressure to pass as it is.

I've said my piece now!!

**Moggie Gifts**

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Isn't the whole point of the AFF to learn how to be a good skydiver (emphasis on the word learn!). I can understand giving the talk to somebody who should know better (ie someone who is already qualified)---seems a bit harsh to me to have a go at the students!! It's not much of a comfort that when I do my AFF people like you guys will be "giving me the talk" if I don't cut the mustard straight away!!

There's enough pressure to pass as it is.

You mis-understand. Instructors will do everything they can to teach you and keep you safe (the good ones anyway). But sometimes people are in over their heads. For example I'd imagine that a violin teacher would explain that maybe a different instrument would a good idea for me after a few lessons. Regardless of how hard I work at it or how hard my Instructor works to teach me, I lack the ability to learn to play the violin. In music, that just means bad playing, in skydiving it means yours and/or others lives.

Skydiving isn't for everyone. It is rare that some that shouldn't be skydiving trys to stick with it anyway and the Instructor has to finally 'give the speech', but it does happen.

Derek

[gjhdiver 0]

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Just out of curiosity, has anyone here ever given this talk or been present as it was given?

I've only known one person who was probably going to get it, but quit the sport on their own before we got to them. Anyone have any interesting stories?

Yep. many times. Some take it to heart and go bowling, some don't. Of the ones that didn't two died skydiving, and others were seriously injured.

I don't give that talk to anyone lightly, and never for just being a shitty skydiver. That can be changed with training and willpower and application. I give it to those who have just the right combination of arrogance, recklessness, stupidity and hubris, that they present a clear danger to anyone around them.

[Douva 0]

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At a DZ long, long ago and far, far away, a pair of fat-bottomed, thirty-something women showed up for the static-line course. They had no muscle tone and you could see the fat sagging on their thighs.
The thought of that picture still gives me shivers!

They did not have enough muscle to lift their left feet off the step - of a Cessna 182 - for proper hanging exits....

I was beginning to think I was the only person bothered by this. If you are in such poor physical condition that you can barely walk up or down a flight of stairs, you have no business jumping out of an airplane. A lot of non-skydivers seem to equate skydiving with a roller coaster ride; they don't recognize it as a sport. I see this mostly with tandems, which isn't quite as serious as with AFF or static line; however, I have seen some tandem ankle injuries in which the only real problem I could see was the student's physical condition. When it comes to AFF or static line, physical condition can be a major factor. Many caving outfits and white water rafting outfits require you to perform a basic physical test before they will let you participate. There is a basic physical test required to get a SCUBA certification. I think drop zones should consider implementing a similar program. Simply requiring AFF and static line students to suspend their own body weight for thirty-seconds (not a pull-up, just hanging) and run 50yds in a time that any person of adequate health should be able to do would help confirm that the students will probably be able to hang onto the plane and run out landings. If your DZ has any physical requirements, other than those put in place by the USPA, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

--Douva

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Isn't the whole point of the AFF to learn how to be a good skydiver (emphasis on the word learn!). I can understand giving the talk to somebody who should know better (ie someone who is already qualified)---seems a bit harsh to me to have a go at the students!! It's not much of a comfort that when I do my AFF people like you guys will be "giving me the talk" if I don't cut the mustard straight away!!

I nearly gave the talk to my buddy in our early jumps! His JM pulled for him on L2, marked altitude awareness as an item on most of his first 4 jumps, and he often wasn't responsive on radio, landing off target. Then he got his act together and passed L4 before me (bastard).

AFF is for learning the basic survival skills, but from the beginning you need to be able to pull on time. You can't rely on the Cypress/Astra to do it for you. So you need to be able to focus well enough to know how high you are. You can't lose that focus for 30 seconds. If you can't then perhaps the only diving should be underwater.

As a diver you still need to keep track of your depth, time, and air supply. But a dive is 30-70 minutes instead of 30-70 seconds, so the time pressure and information overload isn't as bad. Still people manage to run their tanks dry. They should be bowling.

I think you also need to be able to keep the panic reflex in check. Someone who goes fetal and doesn't respond to the AFF-Is may be another suitable candidate for the speech. I don't know if it's a one strike and out, but it's pretty close to it.

As a fellow student, let me recount the 4 priorities. 1- pull, 2- pull on time, 3- pull stable, 4 - land safely. I think as long as you can do #1 and #4 you'll be welcomed to keep working at it until you can do all the turns, tracks, and flips that the AFF sequence requires. You definitely don't have to get everything right on every jump.

[kelpdiver 2]

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There is a basic physical test required to get a SCUBA certification. I think drop zones should consider implementing a similar program. Simply requiring AFF and static line students to suspend their own body weight for thirty-seconds (not a pull-up, just hanging) and run 50yds in a time that any person of adequate health should be able to do would help confirm that the students will probably be able to hang onto the plane and run out landings.
--Douva

The Openwater requirement is that the student can swim 200 yards without stopping, using any stroke and any length of time. Then they must also be able to float or tread water for 10 or 15 minutes without touching any walls. Some require an underwater swim, but any signficant distance is acceptable. It's only at the divemaster level and up that there are any performance requirements. The OW ones may be easier for the very obese as they float better. The test really demonstrates that the student has some level of comfort in the water.

30 second hang makes sense for static line, not sure it's meaningful for AFF. Yet someone who can't do it may have trouble with the toggles for the flare, esp after descending for 5 minutes. Not sure about a 50 yard sprint test either when the PLF is the recommended bailout. A quarter mile test for running fitness seems more sensible.

[Ron 10]

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As a fellow student, let me recount the 4 priorities. 1- pull, 2- pull on time, 3- pull stable, 4 - land safely. I think as long as you can do #1 and #4 you'll be welcomed to keep working at it until you can do all the turns, tracks, and flips that the AFF sequence requires. You definitely don't have to get everything right on every jump.

I'd make that:
1. Land safely
2. Pull.
3. Pull at the correct altitude
4. Pull Stable.

Id rather someone pull unstable, low and land safely than pull stable at the right altitude and hook it in.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[FlyinNover 0]

I'm curious:

Without naming names (obviously), what are some of the reasons you've seen people given the speech?

I mean specifically. Did they go fetal and need an Instructor to pull for them? Did they flake out under canopy and just fly it straight from opening to landing, not even unstowing the brakes?

In a sport (Phreezone's sig is awesome, btw) that demands concentration and awareness, I'm sure we've all at times felt like we're not up to it.......but what have these people done that makes their Instructor or other experienced jumper tell them they're not cut out for it?

Like I said, just curious. I ain't quittin this. Not as long as there's still gas to keep the planes flyin.

(edited because I spelled "obviously" like I've never written in English before.)
---Nover

[sweep 0]

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Simply requiring AFF and static line students to suspend their own body weight for thirty-seconds (not a pull-up, just hanging) and run 50yds in a time that any person of adequate health should be able to do would help confirm that the students will probably be able to hang onto the plane and run out landings. If your DZ has any physical requirements, other than those put in place by the USPA, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

--Douva

At my home DZ, there is an absolute maximum weight limit of 14 stone for any jump (although that's more governed by the wingloading on our student main and reserve canopies). That's in addition to advising students of the higher risk posed by a higher than average body mass index.

In the early stages of the static line courses, the instructor takes the course for a jog to the bottom of the airfield and back. It means they can simultaneously warm up the group prior to beginning body position training, orient them to the DZ and point out hazards and out-landing areas, and show them how to move around the airfield safely. And at the same time the instructor can see anyone who may not be fit enough to continue with the course.

I have seen people turned away for being overweight or ludicrously unfit. Sometimes they are annoyed but usually when the risks are explained to them they accept it.

Sweep

----
Yay! I'm now a 200 jump wonder.... Still a know-it-all tho..

[Reginald 0]

It’s funny at my DZ I know several people including myself that I thought should have been given the speech but none were. I failed AFF4 3 times and AFF5 3 times due to spinning like a top. A dear friend no pulled 2 times on 2 consecutive jumps (she could not find the handle). We were given lots of encouragement and extra time was spent drilling us on what we should do in the air. I personally went to the tunnel and worked out my problems, not at the insistence of an instructor but on my own. My friend who no pulled spent many an hour doing practice touches on the ground. To be fair I see instructors spend huge amounts of time and effort working to keep students motivated and on track. The people that quit do so on there own.

A funny story - on my way back from the tunnel in FL I sat beside what turned out to the Air Force Academy Wings of Blue team. We talked and they gave me encouragement to continue jumping and said the tunnel time would solve my problems (which it did). They also said that several of them got the “bowling lecture” but kept jumping anyway. Hmm, they ended up doing okay!

Most people can do this sport if they are willing to spend the time working on it. There are a few exceptions however.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[kelpdiver 2]

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Id rather someone pull unstable, low and land safely than pull stable at the right altitude and hook it in.

Yeah, I've felt that landing safely gets short changed on that list too.

[Icon134 0]

OK, let me start by saying that honestly I'm not a very good bowler... but seriously...

I injured myself on jump 12, broke my hand, on a cross/down wind landing I know what my mistake was and hopefully I won't make it again (Eat the Carrot). The reason I landed cross wind is because I chose a cross wind landing in a field instead of doing a low hook turn into the ground. then made the mistake of dragging my hand hearing this sort of thing and being conserned about starting back on my way to my A license has me conserned that I might be one of theses people (not to mention the fact that I've got wuffo's that are constantly telling me that I'm going to get hurt... and they won'y listen when I ask them to keep their oppinions to themselves.)

I want to be safe... and I don't want the talk.

I

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[WrongWay 0]

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Without naming names (obviously), what are some of the reasons you've seen people given the speech?

Well, the one person I was speaking of, she just wasn't responsible/sensible enough to handle the sport and be able to walk away from it. She was the kind of person that would drive home from the dz each night for an hour and a half drunk. She also hurt her ankle when she landed on a car with no flare, then came out and tried jumping on her bad ankle about two weeks later. She had no desire to learn whatsoever. At around 25 jumps she had no clue where the relative wind was coming off of the prop. Everything was in one ear and out the other, just a person not cut out for skydiving. As I said, she quit on her own before the talk was given.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[Douva 0]

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Simply requiring AFF and static line students to suspend their own body weight for thirty-seconds (not a pull-up, just hanging) and run 50yds in a time that any person of adequate health should be able to do would help confirm that the students will probably be able to hang onto the plane and run out landings. If your DZ has any physical requirements, other than those put in place by the USPA, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

--Douva

At my home DZ, there is an absolute maximum weight limit of 14 stone for any jump (although that's more governed by the wingloading on our student main and reserve canopies). That's in addition to advising students of the higher risk posed by a higher than average body mass index.

The BMI standard is a good idea. Often, I think too much emphasis is put on weight, for first jump students. I know one female skydiver who is about 180 lbs. and in pretty good shape. I've seen others who were about 150 lbs. and in horrible shape. It all depends on body type.

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In the early stages of the static line courses, the instructor takes the course for a jog to the bottom of the airfield and back. It means they can simultaneously warm up the group prior to beginning body position training, orient them to the DZ and point out hazards and out-landing areas, and show them how to move around the airfield safely. And at the same time the instructor can see anyone who may not be fit enough to continue with the course.

I have seen people turned away for being overweight or ludicrously unfit. Sometimes they are annoyed but usually when the risks are explained to them they accept it.

Sweep

I think the group jog is a GREAT idea. Kelpdiver mentioned earlier that he thought a 1/4 mile run would be a better alternative to a 50 yard dash. I agree, but I'm not sure many DZ's would be willing to commit to spending that much time on physical screening. I figured the 50 yard dash wouldn't really even have to be a sprint--Just show that you can move at a pace faster than a walk for a short distance. As Kelpdiver said, the screening for an Open Water diving certification is a piece of cake for anyone in any reasonable physical condition. That's all a screening for new skydivers would have to be--just something to backup jumpers' assertion on the release form that they are in reasonable physical condition.

--Douva

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[masher 1]

What's shortlining?

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[SkiD_PL8 0]

I was wondering that too, I can only assume it means grabbing the static line in a way that would keep a good portion of it in the plane and start deploying the parachute sooner. Hopefully someone who knows for sure can let us know.

Greenie in training.

[sunshine 2]

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I was wondering that too, I can only assume it means grabbing the static line in a way that would keep a good portion of it in the plane and start deploying the parachute sooner. Hopefully someone who knows for sure can let us know.

Yep.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[SkiD_PL8 0]

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I was wondering that too, I can only assume it means grabbing the static line in a way that would keep a good portion of it in the plane and start deploying the parachute sooner. Hopefully someone who knows for sure can let us know.

Yep.

Short, sweet, and tot he point thanks sunny.

Greenie in training.

[nightjumps 1]

J

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ust a thought. It takes about .75 sec. for a student to reach the end of a static line. In order to short line the student the JM would have to see and identify an exit problem, make the decision to short line and then physically to the act. I do not think it can be done in the time frame available. If the JM short lines the student he had to have unconsciously made the decision before the student leaves the strut/door. I am not a JM but have put out hundreds of test dummies and live test subjects and have never been able to short line after saying go.

Mike, while you make a good point and I "believe" your hypothesis is mostly true, I also "believe" that students give you certain "ques' that lend to the thoughts of "I'm probably going to have to short-line this one."

A couple of examples from my experience would be the elderly gentleman who did well in training, but as he was going out to the strut to hang, stopped short, looked at the strut, looked at me, looked back at the strut then turned on one foot on the strut placed his hands across his chest and pivoted on the one foot indicating that he was going to be spinning while leaving (which he did). The other was the professional boxer, who did some kind of pull-up, then brought his knees into his chest at the same time and shoved backwards with his arms beginning a flipping sequence, I let it go one 360 and when his pack tray was facing 180 of the flight line snatched the static-line short so it would deploy in the windstream behind him rather than in front of the windstream and flying back into him during the flips.

[riggerrob 643]

I gave the "wait a few weeks" speech to a student who limped into Snohomish. Manifest asked me to chat with her. She explained that she had recently sprained her ankle, but really wanted to do a tandem jump with her friends.
When I asked her to run up and down a flight of stairs, she responded "You have got to be joking!"
After I explained the speeds and stresses of landing and the risk of re-injuring her ankle, I told her to come back in a month.

[rehmwa 2]

For AFF or static line? Sure.

For a tandem?

That said, if it was you as the DZ owner or S&TA or tandem master assigned to her, then it's your call.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wilmshurst 0]

I'd say that those two woman had big ovaries - much respect to the big chicks living it large. I'll never hassle a big lass risking humiliation in a thin persons world - whether they be running, at the gym, swimming, or whatever.

If they were not in appropriate physical shape to parachute safely then they should never have been told to board the plane in the first place.

Re the "try bowling" talk, as long as you're safe then you probably should never hear it. If you're safe but suck then you may give your instructor a good laugh as you flail and the DZ shouldn't mind as you just end up spending more cash. If you're safe and you want it bad enough, then do it. Stay safe and promise yourself that you'll become a great skydiver. Better a crap student who sticks with the sport and progresses than a great student who quits soon after.

Re BMI - it's a good indication, but sometimes seriously flawed. For example, a muscular person may well have a BMI that indicates that they are overweight even though they outdo others in strength and even flexibility.

The only thing worse than a cold toilet seat is a warm toilet seat.

[WrongWay 0]

I was just informed that my information about this person was incorrect. She was given the talk by an S&TA or DZO (not sure which, but it happened), so I figured I'd clear that up. My apologies for not getting my facts straight.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[masher 1]

Thanks for that S!

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[DancingFlame 0]

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Ever since then i'm just too scared to even try to land on my feet.

I know at least 4 girls telling this to me every time they have an ass-slide landing
However, all of them have no more than 200 jumps.
So, you're not alone, it seems to be a common woman's problem.