Tonto 1 #26 October 2, 2003 Agreed 100%. You wrote the post I was about to... tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #27 October 2, 2003 I had a hanging main on me after cutaway twice. The RSL was just on one side and secured with velcro. No dubt I feel lucky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #28 October 2, 2003 Either thats some incredible velcro or there is more to the story then that. Just the weight of a canopy alone is enough to undo the velcro on most rig's RSL's. If the main was trailing behind you its got a lot of drag and should have pulled the RSL loose with it. That is unless the release system wa not working correctly. A double sided RSL (Racer) is to be disconnected before cutting away, but all the single sided ones I've ever seen are fine left connected.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #29 October 2, 2003 (dont know if this is why but) remember that velcro is very easy to peal but has enormas strength if you try to pull two sections along their lengh kinda like this: <---------- ----------> good velcro pulled like this would suspend a lot more weight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #30 October 2, 2003 Yes, Velcro does does do that, but think about the actual dynamics of cutting away. You cut away, you start to pitch forward, back to a belly to earth orientation (I'm talking stable cutaway here). As you pitch forward, the velcro holding the RSL to rig that goes over the shoulder, would peel apart, not try to sheer apart. Ok, now what if it is an unstable cutaway. Lets say that it stays connected through the reserve deployment. Eventually forces will pull the canopy to the rear, which would once again, peel the velcro, not sheer the velcro. Anyway you look at it, the velcro on the RSL should not be a problem. If there was a hangup, then something else was wrong. Possibly incorrect routing of the RSL that could bind the RSL against the RSL guide ring (if your rig has it) and prevent it from leaving, for instance.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #31 October 2, 2003 >Why you would want to disconnect your RSL in a two out situation? >Because the RSL is just something else the reserve can catch and hang on? Yep. RSL's are good at snagging things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #32 October 2, 2003 >If anyone has any worries about the consequenses of having a > connected RSL after landing they may safely disconnect it after > passing through their hard deck altitude. >At that hight, they have already made the decision to stay with their >current cannopy and regardless of what happens to it they are unlikly > to attempt a cutaway. Why would you disconnect an RSL at the very altitude that it may start saving your life? Sorta like turning off your cypres if you ever get to 1200 feet with nothing out. Low cutaways are one of the things RSL's were designed for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #33 October 2, 2003 >I bet a cuted away conpy wont open reserve on the ground with the RSL . . . If you cut away in a high wind with an RSL, the reserve container will open but the reserve will not deploy; it will just fall out of the container. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nutz 0 #34 October 2, 2003 See this http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=607378;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #35 October 3, 2003 What kindda hard wind were talking about? 8m/s? More? I had jumps with ~8m/s winds. I was pulling and pulling one of the breaks after landing, it worked canopy collapsed, no drag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #36 October 3, 2003 so do it at 40 ft unless your a swooper you got a seccond to yank the tab and unless your on a skyhook a cutaway at that hight will really hut. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #37 October 3, 2003 Quote If you choose to jump one...Leave it conected till after you land....Otherwise why jump one at all? or rather, just disconnect it under canopy once you see you have a good canopy. Barring another canopy hitting you (which is pretty rare), you get the benefit of a RSL if you had had a malfunction on that jump, and you still can cutaway on the ground without the reserve coming out. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #38 October 3, 2003 my point is that you have to accept that things like canopy collisions will happen and bill is right that its at low altitude that an RSL really helps But if you disconnect at 40ft it aint gonna matter cos canopy collision or main going up in flames whatever - your going down under whatever you happen to have out there and then. The best you could hope to do at that hight is stick your reserve our aswell and hope to get as much above you as pos. You certainly wont be cutting away or you'll go in with nothing out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #39 October 3, 2003 Quote If you cutaway a main canopy because it's dragging you (or to avoid being drug) and an RSL is connected, the reserve container WILL open. As pointed out before: Container opening isn't the same as canopy-deployment. I, for one replaced all 'swedish links' on static-line student canopies with small rapid links - you have to unscrew those. Why? Years ago, a student of mine proved that he was 'creative in an emergency' and disconnected the RSL PRIOR to his cut-away, after which he fell down until his AAD height... I found that a bit to close for comfort. I guess it is all a question of priority and I'm aware of the slight extra risk for the student that cuts away his main in a 2 canopies out situation. OTOH I do disconnect the tandem's RSL prior to landing when in high wind there is no catcher. (Or I'm not there where the catcher is ) Should I ever forget to do so, I'm at great risk of , but there wont be anything dragging me and my passenger through the terrain. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #40 October 3, 2003 Quote or rather, just disconnect it under canopy once you see you have a good canopy. Barring another canopy hitting you And a low cutaway is the ONE reason I see to have an RSL...Other than that it is just another device that you don't need that people rely on. As for a canopy hitting you...I dont care that the chances are low...It happens every year....It is the ONE reason I can see to have one. To disconect it after you have a good canopy just tells me that you need to spend more time in a hanging harness praticing your E-procedures. Why have it if you eliminate the one area that it really could be a good thing?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #41 October 3, 2003 Quote so do it at 40 ft unless your a swooper you got a seccond to yank the tab and unless your on a skyhook a cutaway at that hight will really hut. where do you get these Ideas??????? At 40 feet you should be thinking about landing...not disconecting your RSL. You should be looking around for objects that you might hit, or people that might hit you....NOT messing with an RSL And a famous skyhook is not going to save you at 40 feet either. Im going to give you a little unsolicited advice that you are free and most likley will ignore. Once you reach your hard deck....Don't keep messing with your gear. You should be in a landing confiquration before you get there....Don't still try to collapse your slider, don't still have your toggles stowed...Don't go messing with your cheststrap, goggles....ect. Once you hit your cutaway altitude....Be ready to land. I can point out many examples of people getting screwed up or killed by messing with things long after they should be. Don't mess with your gear after your min cutaway altitude."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #42 October 3, 2003 You dont even have to look to disconnect an RSL and it takes less than a second - they're designed to work like that. I dont do this. I dont think people should. If people assess landing with an RSL attached to be a risk and asses that risk as being greater than the risk involved with disconnecting it under cannopy that is their assessment. There are such people, as evidenced by their posts above. Its even in the SIMS to disconnect an RSL in certain situations, as already stated. All I was saying is that if you do see a reason to disconnect your RSL, dont do it up high, do it at an altitude where the existance of a connected RSL simply is not going to make one iota of difference. Thats where I get these ideas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #43 October 3, 2003 Quote You dont even have to look to disconnect an RSL and it takes less than a second - they're designed to work like that Bad idea to just pull things when you should be flying a canopy. Its a bad idea. But you will not listen. Quote If people assess landing with an RSL attached to be a risk and asses that risk as being greater than the risk involved with disconnecting it under cannopy that is their assessment. There is no RISK...there is just the chance of a repack. Quote All I was saying is that if you do see a reason to disconnect your RSL, dont do it up high, do it at an altitude where the existance of a connected RSL simply is not going to make one iota of difference. And by doing so you take your attention off of the task at hand, which is landing without dying..... How are you going to disconect it without taking your hands out of your toggles? Do you really want to be at 40 feet without the toggles in your hands? This goes against the "Don't go through your hard deack and not be ready to land"....What happens if you can't get the toggle back after you release it? See whay its a bad idea?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #44 October 3, 2003 Quote There is no RISK...there is just the chance of a repack. So why is it in the sims as a saftey proc? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #45 October 3, 2003 if you assessed landing with an RSL as a risk, where would you disconnect it? if you were also trying to gain the benefit of an RSL? I have an RSL, I use it, I NEVER touch it. I am simply trying to help those people who (wrongly IMO - other than in limited situations) consider landing with an RSL in high wind, for an example, as a risk. I want to see if we (as a forum) can minimise the risk we see them as exposing themselves to by coming up with a way they can both have their cake (no RSL on landing) and eat it (RSL for low cuttaways.) So if those are the criteria with which you have to work, where would you disconnect it? We obviously cant change their mind about landing with an RSL being a risk or not - that discussion has been done lots above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #46 October 3, 2003 Quote As for a canopy hitting you...I dont care that the chances are low...It happens every year....It is the ONE reason I can see to have one. If you'e wrapped or entagled with another canopy and cutaway, having a RSL deploy your reserve into the mess is bad. You want to fall away from it first, then deploy. That is the primary reason RSLs are not used in CRW. If a jumper is so low that they can't cutaway and deploy their reserve safely, chances are they're better off skipping the cutaway and just dumping the reserve. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #47 October 3, 2003 Quote If you'e wrapped or entagled with another canopy and cutaway, having a RSL deploy your reserve into the mess is bad. You want to fall away from it first, then deploy. That is the primary reason RSLs are not used in CRW. If a jumper is so low that they can't cutaway and deploy their reserve safely, chances are they're better off skipping the cutaway and just dumping the reserve. Well, he beat me to it....but I have to say, I agree 100% with the above. I don't use an RSL because there are too many times that I see it being a hindrance and trying to kill me, but I don't see a single reason that I need one. Low cutaway? If I'm so low that the difference in time that the RSL would deploy my reserve and I can pull the handle would make any difference whatsoever....I'm probably not going to survive anyways. Plus, if I'm THAT low, I'll just deploy the reserve and try to get as much fabric over my head as possible....and if I have the altitude and I feel it would help, I would consider a canopy transfer. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #48 October 3, 2003 Quote OTOH I do disconnect the tandem's RSL prior to landing when in high wind there is no catcher. (Or I'm not there where the catcher is Once I know I'm not going to cutaway my main on a tandem, It gets disconnected. Its for landing safety, if a gust comes out of no where, if my catchers don't catch in high winds or if they are there but don't do their job, what ever happens, that main can leave, we'll get it later, and myself and my student will not be dragged.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #49 October 3, 2003 Quote So if those are the criteria with which you have to work, where would you disconnect it? We obviously cant change their mind about landing with an RSL being a risk or not - that discussion has been done lots above. Simple I would either jump without it, or leave it alone...I personally jump without it. You don't want to be below your cutaway altitude and be palying with your gear....Also you don't want to take you hands out of the toggle to disconnect anything...Like I have said at your descision altittude be ready to land. Don't pull anything without looking at it first. I know people that have pulled a chest strap till impact. What is so freakin hard to understand not to disconnect the damn thing if you want one? And to not mess with your gear below decision altitude? And to not pull things without looking at them. And not to take your eyes out of the landing to look at something to disconnect it when you don't have to disconnect it anyway. And not to let go of your toggles when you are below your hard deck? Im done here do what you want."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #50 October 3, 2003 Quote If you'e wrapped or entagled with another canopy and cutaway, having a RSL deploy your reserve into the mess is bad. You want to fall away from it first, then deploy. That is the primary reason RSLs are not used in CRW. If a jumper is so low that they can't cutaway and deploy their reserve safely, chances are they're better off skipping the cutaway and just dumping the reserve. And this is why I don't use an RSL at all.....But if you take someone with no CRW training...they will not handle a wrap well....And while dumping the reserve is the best deal here...I have seen and been involved in a few two way wraps that I could and did one pull the reserve right after I fell away....I was low, and I needed a reserve NOW. So the question still stands...If you jump an RSL why disconnect it?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
