Remster 30 #26 August 31, 2004 Our DZ uses them for all students, from 1st PFF on. The idea is train people to use the same things they will use later, in the saem way they are supposed to use them.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #27 August 31, 2004 QuoteI can see your point there. I guess I'm just talking about the initial jumps when many students get tunnel vision, panic takes over, and they forget everything you taught them on the ground. If panic takes over....A thing beeping at them will not make them do anything different. I had a studnet spiral in under a line over....He was taught what to do, and he said he could hear me over the radio telling him to cut away.... He told me that he heard me, and even answered me...But could not do it. And to many jumpers are device dependent..... I guy told me just the other day that could not jump since his AUDIBLE was dead. 300 jumps and he had a visual. Sad."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #28 August 31, 2004 FWIW, I said "Yes" because an extra device to help a student may keep them alive when they're overamped and about to die. We have AADs to keep students alive if they completely lose it and we have RSL's to minimize the effort to get out a reserve. Why object to something that can only help a student? Device dependency? Rethink what an AAD does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velvetjo 0 #29 August 31, 2004 Hi Daizey! Thanks for confirming what I was going to ask. I thought that was the deal, but didn't want to misstate anything without knowing for sure. I recently watched one student's potential no/low pull that was prevented by an audible set as you described. Seems kinda silly of folks to assume he didn't learn anything from it, as I've seen his attitude toward altitude awareness become a lot more serious since then. I'm not sure how giving someone another chance not to bounce is such a bad thing. However, I agree that it should only be used as a backup system. Altitude awareness is a critical skill to develop from the very beginning. Lance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #30 August 31, 2004 I think that if used for students they should be set to go off at the hard deck only (2500 when I went through ASP)... i.e. if you hear this and you don't have a good canopy overhead it is time to start pulling more handles. (using good judgement of course)NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #31 August 31, 2004 I voted "Depends" because I'd say outright NO but I like Tims idea of having one that's simply set to a harddeck. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #32 August 31, 2004 QuoteYes, with "flat line" set at 2,000 AGL just in case there's any question in their mind about whether to keep playing with it (while losing altitude awareness) or getting rid of it. IMO I don't use an audible myself (yet), nor am I an instructor. But the things are a fact of life and a lot of students will be buying them sooner or later anyway. Might just as well admit that and start teaching them how to use one properly. I see no harm at all in setting a flatline at 2000, or even 2500 ft for a student, and maybe setting the "pull" tone for about 500 ft lower than they're supposed to pull (4 grand for an assigned 4500 ft pull, etc). That way, if they even hear the beep they know they're late. If they're doing their job, they won't hear a thing. And a flatline is a flatline, every extra warning can only help. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcords 0 #33 September 1, 2004 We have timeouts in all of our student protecs set for the hard deck. It is not hard to mount them, you just need to make a velcro strap. They only make noise on the way up, not on the way down, unless the student has lost altitude awareness and is still in freefall. Student's are told about them, but are obviously taught not to rely on them. Since they never hear them, they certainly don't rely on them. The two advanced students that broke the hard deck and had an AAD fire, were both on coach jumps, had come from other dropzones and were wearing their own helmet without an audible. I sincerely believe that having the audible could have prevented these incidents, but still would have taught the student the needed lesson in a more pleasant and less costly way. (Lesson learned by me, visiting students are required to wear our student helmets unless they have their own audible.) And those of you who say that they should not be skydivers, get off your high and mighty horse! These students are certainly capable of being skydivers, they just made a mistake, if they don't live or learn from it, then they should not be skydivers. I have trained many people to be skydivers and believe it or not, the ones that turned out to be the best were quite often the ones that were not naturals at it, learned from their mistakes and had the perservence to keep trying! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #34 September 3, 2004 Totally agree.....If they prevent one splashdown only, then they are well worth it.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #35 September 3, 2004 QuoteTotally agree.....If they prevent one splashdown only, then they are well worth it..... The argument would be that you're not considering the incidents caused by the dependancy on them.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #36 September 3, 2004 might be a good thing, if they're set for the hard deck only, so the students don't rely on them. I set my audible low now, most of the time, so I don't rely on it. sometimes, if you're freaking out or zoning out, hearing something can knock you back into reality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #37 September 4, 2004 True, however on balance I think that they would solve far more problems than they create.......benefits outweigh costs equates with profit.........and in my experience the ratio would be 10 to 1 in favour....... I'll take that any day.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nael 0 #38 September 4, 2004 Quotemight be a good thing, if they're set for the hard deck only, so the students don't rely on them. I set my audible low now, most of the time, so I don't rely on it. I agree with this. I did my first 5 jumps today with a pro track. After a lot of discussion with my instructors I decided it'd be smartest not to set it at all for break off etc, and just set it at my hard deck. I definately dont want to start relying on it, but if I need a wake up at my hard deck then I'd rather it be there so I can kick myself about it later rather than become a statistic! (although I do have a cypres - which I also dont want to rely on!) On this topic also, I have a friend with about 18 jumps who told me he couldnt see his alti in freefall today (I think he said someone had taken a grip on his hand and covered it) so he "waited for his pro track to go off so he knew when to track". I was suprised people put this much trust in an audible (but I guess it happens often). Hearing things like this makes me think students, or even people with under 100 or so jumps should only have an audible if it's set to the hard deck only.www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
