gemini 0 #1 September 23, 2004 Heard a rumor that in one of the artistic world events a team was allowed a rejump because the camera did not work or was not turned on during a jump. Can anyone clarify why a rejump would be allowed? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccurley 1 #2 September 23, 2004 I am not going to defend or even try to explain why the judges at this meet would make this decision. I wasn't there and I am not privy to the events details. I take from your question that you are also not privy to details. I only respond, as a judge with experiance in several countries, to object to the SNAFU phrase being used in referance to judging. Judges for the most part participate in that function for the love of the sport and make every effort to treat every one involved in a fair manner and in accordance with the rules. Very few will do anything that is not in keeping with the spirit of the rules. We spend a lot of time and effort to do this job, often without proper breaks for meals or rest.and do it gladdly for the benifit of the sport and the people involved in it. People we admire for thier competitive and fun loving natures. Please don't adopt or propogate the attitude that the judges are always in the wrong. Don't assume we are on a free ride with all our expenses paid and little stress to cope with. Most importantly, don't assume that the judges will always let these attitude roll off like water on a ducks back and come back for more. I hope you get a proper answer to your question as to why the rejump was awarded, hopefully from someone who was actually involved and can deal with your question in a factual manner. Sorry about the venting but sometimes it's got to be done.Watch my video Fat Women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #3 September 23, 2004 QuoteI only respond, as a judge with experiance in several countries, to object to the SNAFU phrase being used in referance to judging. Well the 12 issue IS a snafu. I saw Majics round...The third 12 was iffy, but the first one was not. The rant on Omiskore shows that the judges were exacting revenge. Bad form, and bad judging. QuoteMost importantly, don't assume that the judges will always let these attitude roll off like water on a ducks back and come back for more. Which is what the judges did ont he 12's....They attacked. Bad form. Edit to add. Everyone knows that 12's are a hard block to judge. The rules say INTENT to turn. And that you have to SHOW IT to the judges. With the vidiot now being a member of the team he should be allowed (And good vidiots have been doing this for years) to move to a position that is best to SHOW the INTENT to the judges. Center point busts are a matter of VIDEO ANGLE most times. So why should the video guy not move to a better angle? According to the Omniskore website the judges were pissed at Frances video guy....The rant made it quite clear that the judges felt they were being treated like fools. It also made it quite clear that they penalized the teams for the video guy trying to SHOW the INTENT. The JUDGES need to say what they want to see instead of thsi BS of "Let them do it, and then we will tell them what we want to see". There are three possible final fixes to this problem... 1. Get rid of the damn block. 2. Make both pieces rotate in the same direction. 3. Have the judges say what they want to see. And have that be the SAME at every meet. It has been an issue at the last three World Events.. From the NSL: QuoteIt did not help, the fire lighted up again, first in Texas, then in Russia. Worst of all, the judging calls in round five of the Malevsky Cup were even more inconsistent compared to the Mondial 2003. Only DeLand Majik and V-Max received penalty deductions, and the call against Majik was supported by only three of the five judges, while only two judges pushed the red button for Maubeuge and three accepted the French maneuver. Curiously, only one of the five judges made the same penalty call in both cases. The teams are finally tired of dealing with this inconsistency any longer. The France Maubeuge team members confirmed that their maneuver at exactly the same situation in round five was identical with Majik's. Davide Moy openly admitted that either both teams should have been penalized or none. When the NSL News followed up later asking for solutions, Moy had a very easy suggestion: "Get rid of it, it has caused too much trouble." Even the Frence team admitted that they did the SAME manuver, but didn't get busted while Majic did. That is clear evidence of something wrong with the judging of that block. QuoteKlaus Wellens: Some judges and team managers came to me in Spain and in Germany and asked if I was really sure whether this was the right judgment and if they could continue with the technique they saw in Spain. After confirming by watching tapes and checking the results, I said no and checked with the IPC FS and Judges Committee to make sure that we will make it right this year. NSL News: Did the committee communicate this further down the line, so it could arrive at the team level? Klaus Wellens: I think not. Before I went to Russia for the first 1st Category Event this year, the IPC Anton Malevsky Memorial World Cup, I made sure that the judges in Russia were aware of the policy for the technical execution of certain blocks. I also pointed it out at the team captain’s meeting in Russia and with the present top teams, including Majik, Italy and Russia. It was also important for the Majik members for their coaching positions. They understood and accepted how we would go and judge these techniques. So the judges knew about it in 2002 but didn't bother to tell anyone till the DAY BEFORE the first event?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpmunki 0 #4 September 23, 2004 pardon my ignorance, what is an snafu ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #5 September 23, 2004 Quotepardon my ignorance, what is an snafu ? situation normal... all fucked up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jannu 0 #6 September 23, 2004 Systems Normal, All Fucked Up I think the team in question is now the World Champion.... Good for them (I'm sure they deserve it), maybe not so good for other teams... EDIT... yeah... situation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #7 September 23, 2004 I apologize for using that particular acronym. I did not mean to imply that all judges or that all events are judged inconsistently. It is is interesting to find out however that there were RW judging problems as well that appear to be as serious as what happened at the artistic events. Obviously something needs to be fixed or at least clarified to minimize these problems in the future. Now back to my question, does anyone remember a national or international competition where a rejump was allowed because a cameraman either had a camera malfunction or forgot to turn a camera on? I thought the team got a zero and rejumps were not allowed. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #8 September 23, 2004 I was under that impression too - isn't that the main resaon camera jumpers at such events jump two cameras... ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mccurley 1 #9 September 24, 2004 Ron You make a lot of pionts which from reading your post sounds like you have done some research on. I agree with many of the pionts made in your posts and am not on this thread just to get into an argument. Yes consistancy is required particularly at world level and clarity of rule interpretations as well. Judges do work towards this but also the competitors. If changes are required in the rules it MUST be addressed by COMPETITORS who should put thier views and requests forward. Particularly at competitors meetings at your own Nationals and by way of comunicating with your own national bodies to put rule changes forward to the IPC. Don't get me wrong on this, I am not defending the judges who were involved in the incident which started this thread. I am also not condemning them as I don't know the details first hand. I will state again that the judges usually do the best job they can and add that they are also human and not neccesarily perfect, In fact I promise no one I ever met is perfect at all times. and that includes competitors who see things differently from the judges! My only real intrest in this thread was to point out the error in making asumtions that the judges are always wrong. Most of the time in fact they get it right. Lets put the errors in perspective of the correct calls and the efforts made on behalf of the competitors by the judging staff. We are there for your benifit after all not our own. I personally have spent many hours working after the rest of the competiotion have gone off to play or sleep after a days competing. More then once to find that dinner is gone and your left hungry as well as tired after a hard days work. Work not fun! We still do it because belive it or not, most judges are just as passionate about this sport as any competitor. I only request that this be keep in mind before people rant about the quality of judging and how they got wrong again. Again I'm not going to defend or condemn the judges involved cause I don't have the facts, But I have seen it happen to many times when people do defend or condemn from a very narrow point of view which is often slanted in thier own particular direction. That's all I got to say for now other then lets all work towards the common goal of continually improving "our" sport.Watch my video Fat Women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #10 September 24, 2004 QuoteYou make a lot of pionts which from reading your post sounds like you have done some research on. Thank you...I a both a competitor and a regional judge (well I have all the paperwork done for the rating...I just have to stop being lazy and have a picture taken). I have judged meets before in both 4 and 8way. So I DO know some of the sub standard issues that judges have to deal with. For the most part I don't complain about judges...However this 12 issue has gotten out of hand. At different meets the judges want different things. I don't have a problem with the technique used by Majic or the other top teams. I base this off of: 1. The vidiot is now a Member of the team. So he should be allowed to help show it to the judges. 2. Center point infractions are based off of video angle. Angle can make a good 12 look bad, or a bad 12 look good. The easiest fix is to throw the damn block out...And I know several people that have sent that request up the chain to see if anyone listens. However I think the judges are missing some very basic part of their duties...They need to tell us what they want then hold us accountable. Saying things like SHOW it to me, and INTENT. Are not good enough with problem blocks like this. Again the best thing is to ditch the block. It is fun, but a pain to prove. I am shocked that a FF team would be allowed a Camera rejump.... Equipment malfunctions are not grounds for a rejump...Otherwise the US CF team should have been allowed a rejump on the round they scored a zero due to a member having a mal. Again, I don't have the facts...But several questions have been rasied (as always happens at these meets) Some of the answers we have been given thus far have fallen way short. But I thank the judges for their time and effort....I just want to see better communication BOTH ways. This is the main reason I am working on my judging ratings."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #11 September 24, 2004 Last time I wnet to nationals (a few years ago) re-jumps for camera problems were near impossible to get... if the problem was within the cameraman's control, you did not get one, period. By in the cameraman's control I mean, forget to turn it on, battery dies, run out of tape, tape dropout due to reuse of tape, falling off the plane, pretty much anything... if there was another problem with the camera, it was up to the head video guy for the meet to make a determination (IIRC that was Brent Finley for the meet I was at)... Was it a team that ended up on the podium? JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #12 September 24, 2004 QuoteWas it a team that ended up on the podium? Yes, it was the first place men's freestyle team. As Ron said, if our video guy forgot to turn on the camera, I would expected to be as screwed as if I forgot the routine we were performing. I have a feeling these rules will be modified by next year.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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gemini 0 #7 September 23, 2004 I apologize for using that particular acronym. I did not mean to imply that all judges or that all events are judged inconsistently. It is is interesting to find out however that there were RW judging problems as well that appear to be as serious as what happened at the artistic events. Obviously something needs to be fixed or at least clarified to minimize these problems in the future. Now back to my question, does anyone remember a national or international competition where a rejump was allowed because a cameraman either had a camera malfunction or forgot to turn a camera on? I thought the team got a zero and rejumps were not allowed. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #8 September 23, 2004 I was under that impression too - isn't that the main resaon camera jumpers at such events jump two cameras... ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccurley 1 #9 September 24, 2004 Ron You make a lot of pionts which from reading your post sounds like you have done some research on. I agree with many of the pionts made in your posts and am not on this thread just to get into an argument. Yes consistancy is required particularly at world level and clarity of rule interpretations as well. Judges do work towards this but also the competitors. If changes are required in the rules it MUST be addressed by COMPETITORS who should put thier views and requests forward. Particularly at competitors meetings at your own Nationals and by way of comunicating with your own national bodies to put rule changes forward to the IPC. Don't get me wrong on this, I am not defending the judges who were involved in the incident which started this thread. I am also not condemning them as I don't know the details first hand. I will state again that the judges usually do the best job they can and add that they are also human and not neccesarily perfect, In fact I promise no one I ever met is perfect at all times. and that includes competitors who see things differently from the judges! My only real intrest in this thread was to point out the error in making asumtions that the judges are always wrong. Most of the time in fact they get it right. Lets put the errors in perspective of the correct calls and the efforts made on behalf of the competitors by the judging staff. We are there for your benifit after all not our own. I personally have spent many hours working after the rest of the competiotion have gone off to play or sleep after a days competing. More then once to find that dinner is gone and your left hungry as well as tired after a hard days work. Work not fun! We still do it because belive it or not, most judges are just as passionate about this sport as any competitor. I only request that this be keep in mind before people rant about the quality of judging and how they got wrong again. Again I'm not going to defend or condemn the judges involved cause I don't have the facts, But I have seen it happen to many times when people do defend or condemn from a very narrow point of view which is often slanted in thier own particular direction. That's all I got to say for now other then lets all work towards the common goal of continually improving "our" sport.Watch my video Fat Women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #10 September 24, 2004 QuoteYou make a lot of pionts which from reading your post sounds like you have done some research on. Thank you...I a both a competitor and a regional judge (well I have all the paperwork done for the rating...I just have to stop being lazy and have a picture taken). I have judged meets before in both 4 and 8way. So I DO know some of the sub standard issues that judges have to deal with. For the most part I don't complain about judges...However this 12 issue has gotten out of hand. At different meets the judges want different things. I don't have a problem with the technique used by Majic or the other top teams. I base this off of: 1. The vidiot is now a Member of the team. So he should be allowed to help show it to the judges. 2. Center point infractions are based off of video angle. Angle can make a good 12 look bad, or a bad 12 look good. The easiest fix is to throw the damn block out...And I know several people that have sent that request up the chain to see if anyone listens. However I think the judges are missing some very basic part of their duties...They need to tell us what they want then hold us accountable. Saying things like SHOW it to me, and INTENT. Are not good enough with problem blocks like this. Again the best thing is to ditch the block. It is fun, but a pain to prove. I am shocked that a FF team would be allowed a Camera rejump.... Equipment malfunctions are not grounds for a rejump...Otherwise the US CF team should have been allowed a rejump on the round they scored a zero due to a member having a mal. Again, I don't have the facts...But several questions have been rasied (as always happens at these meets) Some of the answers we have been given thus far have fallen way short. But I thank the judges for their time and effort....I just want to see better communication BOTH ways. This is the main reason I am working on my judging ratings."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #11 September 24, 2004 Last time I wnet to nationals (a few years ago) re-jumps for camera problems were near impossible to get... if the problem was within the cameraman's control, you did not get one, period. By in the cameraman's control I mean, forget to turn it on, battery dies, run out of tape, tape dropout due to reuse of tape, falling off the plane, pretty much anything... if there was another problem with the camera, it was up to the head video guy for the meet to make a determination (IIRC that was Brent Finley for the meet I was at)... Was it a team that ended up on the podium? JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #12 September 24, 2004 QuoteWas it a team that ended up on the podium? Yes, it was the first place men's freestyle team. As Ron said, if our video guy forgot to turn on the camera, I would expected to be as screwed as if I forgot the routine we were performing. I have a feeling these rules will be modified by next year.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
