"You can do everything right and still die in this sport".

[Spatula 0]

Even as a newbie to this sport, I hear this statement all the time. "You can do everything right, and still die". Well in my PSY class last night we were talking about some topics and skydiving of course came to mind, especially this statement.


What is "in" your control....gear checks, safety measures, jump conditions, etc...(I'm sure this list can grow...limited knowledge).....

What's "out" of your control when it comes to making a skydive? I'm really curious about this?

Hopefully you can see my point and I articulated well enough, if not...let me know and I'll try again....thanks a bunch all!!

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

What's "out" of your control when it comes to making a skydive? I'm really curious about this?

"Shit"... sometimes it just happens.

Go read about the fabled creation of the skydivers maxim "blue skys black death".

[Remster 30]

What's "out" of your control ?

Other people

Unknown gear problems (Things not viewed as apotential problem until it became one, ie grommets)

Random freaky accidents

Remster

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

What's "out" of your control when it comes to making a skydive?

I'll start the list:
- The aircraft
- The errors of other skydivers
- Malfunctions (those not caused by rigging errors)

Those are the three big ones.

I do not list these to try and scare people away from the sport. Danger factors also occur outside the sport, in our everyday lives: drunk drivers, cancer, crime...

Life is dangerous.

[mr2mk1g 10]

by "shit" I could clarify that this catagory includes the instances where errors or malfuntions compound one another.

eg one error or malfunction is often, if not usually not enough to kill... the problem is that you might be real unlucky and have two or three that combine to kill you.

You could jump 5 times and have each error/malfunction happen on its own on each individual jump.

But "shit" says that sometimes someone's gonna get all 5 in one go and that's when they die.

Some people might refer to "shit" as luck, or whatever... but it happens.

[happythoughts 0]

There is two categories. Stuff you know about right now, but don't generally consider, and stuff that you haven't experienced yet.

Aircraft accidents.
Other people:
- canopy collisions. people who take you out.
- people not tracking and dumping underneath you.
- people corking you.
- people coming in too hard and knocking you senseless or breaking your parts.
- tracking into each other.
- airspace collisions.
- people push you into the airplane frame on exit.
Environment:
- wind rotors off of fixed objects. trees, buildings.
- dust devils that appear randomly.
- wind that inexplicably just stops and drops you.
Equipment failures of many types.
Murphy's Law:
- lines snagged around camera and helmet places.

Plan for all the stuff you know of.
Try to learn about, and avoid, the others.
Think about the possible dangers all the time.

[dreamsville 0]

How can I avoid it?

- canopy collisions: be watchful, try to find an out in a courtesy trap
- people not tracking . . .: ensure a high enough break-off for the jump, a slightly de-arched aggresive track helps (watch the next group though)
- people corking you: if you can't avoid it, watch where others are and get horizontally clear as best you can of there is no time/not safe to close the distance
- people coming in too hard: can you see them and get out of the way?
- tracking into each other, airspace collisions: Russian radar
- people push you into airframe: plan your exit body position, not too many people abreast than is realistic, although esp in 10-way or other stuff it's tough to avoid sometimes.
- wind rotors: land somewhere away from the objects or just stay on the ground altogether (sometimes that's the best idea). Rotors may occur up to 5 to 10 times the height of the object away from it sometimes.
- dust devils: tough call, esp in places like Eloy. We grounded ourselves midday after some kicked up and it was gusty.
- wind that inexplicably . . .: tough one to guage sometimes, although usually there are choppy conditions that warn about this in advance. At our DZ I notice the high-timers (jump numbers) are sometimes the first to self-ground.
- Equipment failures: check your gear and check the inspection box on the form on each re-pack if available, all you can do is your best or ask others if loop is frayed etc.
- lines snagged . . .: removed breakaway helmet sight mount, relying on goggle dots or other method not involving things sticking out.

Remember, you can make it safe enough for YOU to accept it, based upon your view of the risks. If you can't, don't jump.

Edited to fix grammar, spelling.
|

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[Spatula 0]

This is great info!!! My instructor said that next class we were going to touch on extreme sports and skydiving. She's not an advocate of skydiving, or so she says. So I wanted to have some "ammo" aka knowledge to discuss with her. Thanks all!

[Spatula 0]

Quote

Remember, you can make it safe enough for YOU to accept it. If you can't, don't jump.

I totally agree. I understand (more and more) the risks involved in this sport and accept them. Thanks!

[rendezvous 0]

Quote

What's "out" of your control when it comes to making a skydive? I'm really curious about this?

Your destiny !

[Ron 10]

Quote

- Malfunctions (those not caused by rigging errors)

I was told that only three things cause malfunctions:
1. Bad Packing.
2. Bad Maintenance
3. Bad body position.

I really can't think of a mal that does not fit into those 3 areas. All or some in each.

[funks 1]

Quote

Quote

What's "out" of your control when it comes to making a skydive? I'm really curious about this?

Your destiny !

Gravity

[happythoughts 0]

I based my suggestions on problems that I have seen encountered by safe people with more than 1,000 jumps. They generally avoided problems, so when something happens, it was notable and could serve as an example of "doing everything right" in a general sense.

People can't know everyone on a walkup load.
They can't know the ability of everyone under canopy with them.

- canopy collisions - Roger Nelson
- people not tracking - happens on walkup loads where you don't know everyone.
- people corking you - this worries a lot of my friends who freefly.
- people coming in to hard - doing a form load and having a guy follow me out and nail me from behind/above. never saw him.
- tracking into each other - A few years ago, one person still tracking to the formation, one already tracking away.
- people push you into airframe - a friend who was a load organizer was pushed into the tail side of the door by a front floater.
- dust devils - one took out a tandem in Washington a while back.
- Equipment failures - recent adjustable MLW failures.

Quote

Remember, you can make it safe enough for YOU to accept it. If you can't, don't jump.

That is so true. I have stayed in the plane because of visibility and been called chicken. I stay on the ground if the wind is too strong. I can always jump another day.

[speedy 0]

Quote

Quote

- Malfunctions (those not caused by rigging errors)

I was told that only three things cause malfunctions:
1. Bad Packing.
2. Bad Maintenance
3. Bad body position.

I really can't think of a mal that does not fit into those 3 areas. All or some in each.

I had two mals that required cutaways that had nothing to do with the three above.
Now I don't mess with my risers during the snivel phase, even if the canopy looks like it's going into line twists.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[tombuch 0]

Think about the "culture" of the operation. Much of that is not under your direct control, but as an active skydiver you will have an effect on how the culture matures, and thus you will have at least some control over the long term. Take a moment and read a feature I wrote for The ranch web site about culture. It also includes a fictional accident with multiple causes. The feature is available at: http://ranchskydive.com/safety/tb_article17.htm.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Ron 10]

Quote

I was told that only three things cause malfunctions:
1. Bad Packing.
2. Bad Maintenance
3. Bad body position.

I really can't think of a mal that does not fit into those 3 areas. All or some in each.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I had two mals that required cutaways that had nothing to do with the three above.
Now I don't mess with my risers during the snivel phase, even if the canopy looks like it's going into line twists.

Uh, if it spun up do to you messing with it while it snivels...It would be body position.

[darkwing 5]

Quote

I was told that only three things cause malfunctions:
1. Bad Packing.
2. Bad Maintenance
3. Bad body position.

This is just plain wrong. Truly, there are some malfunctions that are not a result of any of those. There is some chaotic/turbulent airflow and processes involved in parachute openings, and sometimes it just malfunctions.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Morcyk 0]

What about the more obvious of what's not in your control? What about the people that actually crafted your parachute? Maybe a corner was cut, or the new guy wasn't quite sure of himself? You could have all your safety checks done and everything looks perfect, then you pull the cord and all the seams rip out.

[Ron 10]

Quote

This is just plain wrong

Your opinion.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,085]

>I was told that only three things cause malfunctions:
>1. Bad Packing.
>2. Bad Maintenance
>3. Bad body position.

We had some excellently maintained tandem rigs, packed by Taz (Navy rigger, has thousands of reserve pack jobs) that would develop tension knots every once in a while. Sometimes shit just happens, even when everything is in top shape.

[flyhi 24]

Went to the Navy aviation safety school and they strongly abhored the "shit happens" approach to life. They did not like using the word accident because it had a "shit happens" connotation to it. They preferred mishap. They reluctantly agreed that acts of God could occur, but an extremely high (99. as many nines as you are comfortable with) per centage of mishaps had a cause or several causes.

Anyone who has ever witnessed a real military mishap investigation will agree that they will find a cause. Whether it is "loss of situational awareness", material failure, inadequate training, improper procedure,... They will find a cause and that cause will lead to changes. And, in many ways, we do the same thing. Many of the steps we take are written in the blood of those who went before us, because someone took the time to figure out, what happened (I am reminded of this everytime I place my suspension lines in my pack tray next to my closing loop holder).

What do we not have within our control, I would say possibly weather and the acts of others. But most times, we can ameliorate those effects by prior planning and preparedness.

Billvon: I'm surprised that as an engineer you are willing to accept, tension knots just happened. Something had to cause them.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[Samurai136 0]

Replace the word "sport" with any other activity; driving for example. Even if you follow all the saftey procedures, maintainance, etc you can still die driving.

I think the concept is flawed. What does doing 'everything right' have to do with death? Following procedures and saftey guidelines merely reduces the likehood that you will die in the near future. In the fullness of time everyone will die.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[OnYourBack 0]

I am curious how many injuries or fatalities there have been where the injured party did everything right. I'm sure it has happened, but I bet it is extremely rare.

[ManBird 0]

Quote

I was told that only three things cause malfunctions:
1. Bad Packing.
2. Bad Maintenance
3. Bad body position.

#2 and #3 are dead on. #1 needs to be changed to "totally fucked packing." It's hard to accidentally pack a mal. I try to accidentally pack one every time. Hell, even on a BASE canopy, you can get away with a lot of slop.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[jalisco 0]

Quote

Hell, even on a BASE canopy, you can get away with a lot of slop.

Absolutely -- it'll open right practically every time...


And if not, you can always ... um ...