PAC 750XL: Pros and Cons

[flyhi 24]

Jumped the PAC 750XL this weekend at the Byron Boogie. Thought some people would like to share their perceived pros and cons. Mine;

Pros: 1. Great step outside below the door. Very nice. Great camera step.
2. Great floater bars inside and out. Many places to grab.
3. Very wide door. Can line up a butt load of people in it.
4. Nice paint job.

Cons: 1. The wide door is not tall. Divers beware. Heard it was not fun for tandems. A lot of butt sliding.
2. With five people out, we stalled the aircraft on exit. One late diver fell down and one tumbled into the back bulkhead. Might be PT.
3. Fully loaded it is very tight and climbs slowly. With 14 on board it is outclimbed by the KingAir.
4. The blast outside is very high. With five out and trying a linked exit (front, center, rear linked), front-front must be very aggressive or he will get blown back into the base. Also on a linked exit, front must be aggressive or the blast will blow him/her back into and under the base. If too aggressive, the blast will push him back and spin the base on exit. Practice, practice, practice.

The tail is low, but a non-issue from what I could tell. Heard someone hit it, but no confirmation.

All things considered, I'd rather have a PAC 750 than a 182. Toss-up on a KingAir.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Bet if you were paying the running costs you'd take it over a king air

[skymedic 0]

I'll take the Pac over the Caravan I jump regularly any time. I loved it...even when it was loaded. it is tight...for sure. but still I liked it. windows are WAY cool too!!!.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

2. With five people out, we stalled the aircraft on exit. One late diver fell down and one tumbled into the back bulkhead. Might be PT.

You know, if you have 4-5 people out on the step of a 182 its easy for the pilot to stall the A/C if the pilot doesn't take the proper precautions.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[altichick 1]

I liked it, and the biggest pro has to be that it only takes 6 jumpers to start it and 4 to turn it... that and being able to stand on the wing was kind of cool too!

And even the ride up to 18k didn't seem to take that long.... or was that just the hypoxia talking??

................................................

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[Vallerina 2]

Pro: The air vent!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Deuce 1]

Quote

I'd rather have a PAC 750 than a 182

While I think that was not meant as a slam, it truly is. The blessed 182 is the little engine that could in skydiving. It is not the be-all, end-all that the PAC has been advertised as being.

The skydiving industry, such as it is, runs on tandems. As stated by Skymedic, the PAC has really nice windows, so rides to altitude are nice sight seeing tours for tandem passengers. That is, so long as a rig is not smashing their balls or boobs. At max gross, the plane is over tight. The might Sebazz was behind me on one PAC load, and was really smashed and pretty desperate to get out by the time we were at alti.

So, for tandems, it sucks. At least with the bench. I'd set one up with wrestling-type mats and floor seat belts, much like Monterey's Otter, if I was in charge. Sitting on the floor kind of defeats the advantage of those big windows, though.

The prop blast is heinous. I think this is contributing to people striking the flap and the horizontal stabilizer on exit. When up on the step in the blast, however strong you are, you are straining to keep your body forward. I think this contributes to throwing oneself forward on exit. The air right above the wing might be cleaner, so once out of the prop blast, WHACK!, right into the flap. The shiny new one we jumped at Byron had head-shaped dings in the flap, and I saw the Amazing AvgJoe himself smack the flap with his noggin. The blast seems to be superterminal, so if you track up into it, it seems it would be easy to track up into the approaching tail. Especially with a wingsuit.

Like I've said elsewhere, I'm sure we'll adapt to it, cause like it or not it's the future of skydiving transport.

[JohnMitchell 16]

Quote

You know, if you have 4-5 people out on the step of a 182 its easy for the pilot to stall the A/C if the pilot doesn't take the proper precautions.

If you have 5 people out on a C-182, the biggest cause of the stall is that the pilot is out there with you. I'm not a pilot, but I think the Skylane's problem isn't so much from the CG being so far aft, since the jumpers are under the wing. I think it's the disruption of lift under the wing and airflow over the tail, plus the humongous drag of up to three abreast in the wind.

And yes, I know you can take 5 jumpers in a 182 sometimes, but I don't know if that's usually a good idea.

[riggerrob 643]

PAC 750

So, for tandems, it sucks. At least with the bench. I'd set one up with wrestling-type mats and floor seat belts, much like Monterey's Otter, if I was in charge. Sitting on the floor kind of defeats the advantage of those big windows, though.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I disagree.

I have tried all three seating configurations in other airplanes.
Sitting on the floor is my least favorite when doing tandems. Even with wrestling mats, it is still a lot of extra work to hook-up, waddle to the door, etc.
Side benches in Twin Otters are slightly better, but still make it difficult to tighten side straps.
My favorite is the bob-sled style benches installed in our old Beech 18 and in our current King Air. Benches provide convenient spaces for legs and they get students' eyes up high enough to see out windows. Being able to see where they are going vastly reduces the incidence of airsickness. Benches also allow us to stuff more people, more comfortably into an airplane and make tightening side straps a breeze.
If a DZO told me that I HAD to sit on the floor of a PAC 750, I would start making bob-sled style benches. If he declined to install my benches, I would start searching for employment elsewhere .....
because I am too old and too grumpy to kneel in airplanes any more.
HUMPFT!

[diablopilot 2]

Deuce, wait till you have a few more tandems, more A/C jumped under your belt, and some experience paying the bills of aircraft operation, and you might see the positive side of the PAC.


If I never had to ride a King air again it would be too soon. Beyond the door and uncomfortable on the floor seating, there is the risk factor of riding youn with an under experienced pilot. Ever been in one stall? Ever seen one have an engine out? I've done both and they are two of the scariest moments I've EVER had skydiving. I shudder to think how it would have been to have a tandem on my lap, and feel that trapped in the back of the A/C.

The PAC IMO is a great A/C. To date my favorit jump plane has been the Caravan. The BAC has the same kind of room, a door that wider and just as tall for floaters when they are out on the step. It has benches. The good kind. The kind you sit with a leg on either side, making for the easiest tandem hookups in history. I hated hooking up tandems when I moved to the land of many otters and the "box". What a pain in the ass. Never in a Caravan or the PAC have I had to ask or heard "Make room for the tandems" at 9 grand.

As for prop blast? Never felt it as a problem on this A/C. Floating is as easy as it is on the Caravan. Your KA at Byron is one of the only ones I've ever seen with a step like that, so you're used to an easy float. Try putting 5 out on an unmodified KA.

All in all I thin it's a great plane. Far superior to a KA for me, matches a Caravan for fun and comfort. Hope it goes big in the industry.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

If you have 5 people out on a C-182, the biggest cause of the stall is that the pilot is out there with you.

Naw, there are plenty of 182s out there STCed for 5 jumpers, not as uncommon as "turbine babies" think.

My point was, any aircraft can stall with jumpers outside, it takes a pilot working the controls and anticipating the drag to keep it from stalling.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Fast 0]

The only thing I don't like about the PAC and will continue to not like is the fact that it is WAY WAY to tight in there. I was so uncomfortable on a ride to altitude in a fully loaded PAC that I would have been happy to get out low.

If my DZ got one I would probally change DZs if they insisted on loading it up tight.


(I do recognize the huge cost advantage of this plane)

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

And yes, I know you can take 5 jumpers in a 182 sometimes, but I don't know if that's usually a good idea.

It's not. No matter what the STC says, it's a bad idea.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[flyhi 24]

Quote

You know, if you have 4-5 people out on the step of a 182 its easy for the pilot to stall the A/C if the pilot doesn't take the proper precautions.

PT means pilot technique, and I believe the pilot changed that technique on subsequent loads. It seemed we started a shallow descent and sped up slightly. The stall only happened to me on one load. The good thing about stalling a 182 with four or five out is, I would be one of those out.

Quote

Pro: The air vent!

Never had the experience. I always sat near the Double Overhead Olfactory Refresher device, which proved particularly valuable Sunday morning. Whose idea was wheat beer Saturday night?

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[gemini 0]

Con:

Seem to be a lot of sharp, snag points that were magnified by the low cabin height. If nothing else, the door slide path should have been more flush to the top of the cabin instead of hanging down 3-4 inches. Saw a lot of divers hit the door slid on exit.

Blue skies,

Jim

[Deuce 1]

Quote

Deuce, wait till you have a few more tandems, more A/C jumped under your belt, and some experience paying the bills of aircraft operation, and you might see the positive side of the PAC.

Brother, that's like saying "Once you've stuck enough pins in your eyes, you'll be able to really appreciate the difference between a tack and a needle"

I've already said the Caravan is the bomb for tandems. Better than the KingAir. The problem with the PAC is that the benches are carpeted. You can't scoot down them. The ceiling is too low to duck-walk down the aisle hooked up more than a couple times a day, and while the door is bigger once you are on the step that doesn't help cause I don't poise the tandem passenger on the step. We gotta go through the hole, and it's short from inside. I prefer hooking up on the straddle bench too. Problem is getting the outboard feet into the center aisle and getting down to the door, where the interior of the fuselage keeps shrinking like an optical illusion. The reason I'd rather it had floor seating is because I'm too big to take a tandem my size down the aisle and out. So is Connie!

Again, one of the Davis tandem masters, who jumps the Caravan and the PAC weekly, told me the Caravan is far superior.

As to paying the bills on a KingAir vs. a PAC, the PAC wins. The airlift provider can have his own forum. I'm posting my opinions as a consumer. It's got a stable ride, it's reasonably fast to altitude, and it has nice big windows. It's cramped. As a tandem master (with fewer tandem jumps than you) I'd rather go out of the 182 or the 206.

For Birdman flight it's REALLY uncomfortable, and after one experience with it, the flock at the Byron Boogie was actively avoiding it.

Look, as I said, there is no doubt that it is the future of skydiving airlift. Everybody, including me, will find ways to make it work.

So far I've jumped the CASA, Skyvan(s), Caravan(s), KingAir(s), Otter(s), Beech 18, C182(s), C206(s), a couple ballooons, a couple helicopters, and the Hercules.

The PAC is a compromise aircraft. It compromizes lift capacity with economy. Everybody wins when more people get to skydive more in a day. That doesn't mean they are comfortable.

That's all. I was really looking forward to this airplane. I was just hoping for more from all the hype.

[kai2k1 0]

Pac 750 reviews from WFFC


Here's some reviews from the PAC that was at WFFC.

I'm not playing repost police here, Just adding some reviews for you

There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

The problem with the PAC is that the benches are carpeted.

That won't change either. Ray mentioned at WFFC that he had to spend many dollars to have those seats pass with fireproof specs to make the FAA happy. I think he said the benches alone cost $6000 and that he has a second set as well.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[headoverheels 334]

Leather and some vinyl will also pass the FAA flame test.

[mpreil 2]

You got it. The key word there is "compromise". The laws of gravity and aerodynamics work the same in New Zealand as they do here, and their economics aren't that much different either, so they aren't suddenly going to invent a new aircraft with a faster climb rate, higher payload, and lower operating cost. Something has to give somewhere - in this case, it's less room per person, an incredibly noisy interior, and a hellacious prop blast across the door, among other things.

The other JP likes to say "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch". Well, there ain't no such thing as a cheaper, larger, faster, more comfortable skydiving aircraft either.

[PhreeZone 20]

Noisy? I thought the PAC was an extremely quiet airplane compared to Skyvans, Casa's, and Otters. Onlything that is quieter is the King Air's.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[crutch 0]

Quote

It's not. No matter what the STC says, it's a bad idea.

-jp-

May I ask why? The STC goes with such things as extended wingtips, cuffs on the leading edge, etc. The gross weight is raised, so the weight of the fifth jumper becomes a non-issue.

blue skies,

art

[diablopilot 2]

Right up till the engine quits.

I've got a couple hundred 182 jumps and I'll never get in one with 5 jumpers. Most with 4 big guys, rigs and a pilot are pushing the edge of disaster.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Naw, there are plenty of 182s out there STCed for 5 jumpers, not as uncommon as "turbine babies" think.

My point was, any aircraft can stall with jumpers outside, it takes a pilot working the controls and anticipating the drag to keep it from stalling.

Quote

An STC does not cover how many jumpers you can put in the plane. That is dependent on how many seat belts and how much they all weigh.

An aircraft can stall at any speed with or without jumpers outside. It takes the jumpers working with the pilot to prevent this. Be reasonable about how many are outside and don't take forever to stack the exit. Getting one more person outside is not going to make any difference, in most cases, on how the dive goes and will more then likely screw up the exit.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

• Quote

Share this post

---

Link to post

Share on other sites

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

An STC does not cover how many jumpers you can put in the plane. That is dependent on how many seat belts and how much they all weigh.

Sorry, I wasn't totally clear (especially since I'm not a pilot)...I was talking about weight. I've seen 5-jumper 182s with wing extensions, hopped up engines, seat belts for all, etc and I felt safe in the plane. I even talked to the DZO about the weight. If you had 4 guys like me you couldn't take a 5th, but most "average" jumpers 5 were within the weight.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."