mattjw916 2 #1 October 6, 2004 Since there was a difference of opinion regarding the author and/or contributing author(s) of the AFF and/or ISP program from a previous thread here is the exact wording as was related to me upon entry to AFF and as printed in the Skydive Arizona Ground School Manual: "In 1984 Al wrote the first edition of the AFF Student Manual for his own DZ, and has seen it being used all over the world." Quote MakeItHappen wrote: FYI Point: Ken Coleman is credited with developing the AFF harness hold program that was adopted by USPA in Oct. 1981.... from thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1275773;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC These would appear to be conflicting or at best confusing... wouldn't you agree mjosparky. If you are going to continually flame me via PMs days and days after this thread reached it logical conclusion perhaps you should unblock my messages so I can respond in kind.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2 October 6, 2004 Matt -- You are more than welcome to ask the basic question, but leave out the pre-emptive strikes will ya.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #3 October 6, 2004 Wow, Matt...Sparky has forgotten more about skydiving than you will likely ever learn... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,584 #4 October 6, 2004 I was in an AFF certification course in either 1982 or 1983. I have pictures from it. That would be before 1984. While Al may have written the first formal student manual, the program, and formal JCC/ICCs, definitely existed before then. Ken Coleman was credited with having originated the course. Mike Johnston and Jack Gregory were the course directors. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #5 October 6, 2004 Thanks for the info Wendy. Since obviously there was a difference of opinion, and others chose to flame instead of inform, it is nice to see that someone with a cooler head could explain it better.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 104 #6 October 6, 2004 QuoteWow, Matt...Sparky has forgotten more about skydiving than you will likely ever learn... Ciels- Michele Clearly you don't know Matt. I have already discovered from previous threads that at 50ish jumps he knows all there is to know about the sport.Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #7 October 6, 2004 QuoteQuoteWow, Matt...Sparky has forgotten more about skydiving than you will likely ever learn... Ciels- Michele Clearly you don't know Matt. I have already discovered from previous threads that at 50ish jumps he knows all there is to know about the sport. Wow, having never met me, you have me all figured out... NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #8 October 6, 2004 Ken died shortly after presenting AFF to USPA and probably before it became formal. I think it was 1981 or 1982. He was a local at my DZ. Rocky Evans was also instrumental in developing the idea. They were team mates on the Rainbow Flyers; 3 time National, one world and one world cup champions in 74 through 76. Ken and Rocky were both in a hot air ballon in the Chicago area that caught fire. Rocky jumped without a rig. High estimates vary but it shouldn't have been survivable but he did. He was jumping to his probable death rather than burning. Ken stayed in the ballon and all in it died. BTW it was a ballon flight, not a jump, so no one had rigs on.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,584 #9 October 6, 2004 Maybe there was some flameage. However, you were going mano a mano with a whole bunch of people who have spent years earning respect from the skydiving community at large. They might not have come to your door, stated their qualifications, and asked personally for your respect, but they've invested a long time and a lot of effort in the sport. Al Gramando never came to my door and stated his individual qualifications either, but, well, I assume he's smart enough to have reasons for his opinions that he's formed in the (larger than mine) number of years in the sport. When someone with that much more time in the sport states something, you at least listen and consider why they might have thought that way. You might still disagree, but it'll do nothing but add to your knowledge to consider someone else's rationale for an experienced decision. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 104 #10 October 6, 2004 QuoteWow, having never met me, you have me all figured out... First of all your posts speak volumes about your attitude. Second of all we see people like you come and go in the sport all the time. Newbies that know everything and won't listen. Some make it, some realize that they are in over their heads and quit and some get hurt or killed. I hope you will fall into the first category. Time will tell. -OKTime flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #11 October 6, 2004 QuoteTime will tell. Indeed... I will try to be less adversarial in my future posts.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #12 October 6, 2004 QuoteSince there was a difference of opinion regarding the author and/or contributing author(s) of the AFF and/or ISP program from a previous thread here is the exact wording as was related to me upon entry to AFF and as printed in the Skydive Arizona Ground School Manual: "In 1984 Al wrote the first edition of the AFF Student Manual for his own DZ, and has seen it being used all over the world." Quote MakeItHappen wrote: FYI Point: Ken Coleman is credited with developing the AFF harness hold program that was adopted by USPA in Oct. 1981.... from thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1275773;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC These would appear to be conflicting or at best confusing... wouldn't you agree mjosparky. If you are going to continually flame me via PMs days and days after this thread reached it logical conclusion perhaps you should unblock my messages so I can respond in kind. Please read page AFF 1, Section B in IRM Essentials It's page 16 of 27. Many DZs wrote and still write an instructional manual that was specific to their operation. That is what Al did at Skydive Chambersburg. Roger Nelson did it for Sandwich. Tony Frost did it for Marana. Rick Horn did it for Coolidge. etc etc etc..... I think your confusion is between the AFF program adopted by the BOD in Oct. 1981 and the implementation programs at specific DZs. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #13 October 6, 2004 Thanks to all that responded to my question without creating another debacle like the previous thread. I guess I owe beer for being a PITA. ~Matt~NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #14 October 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteTime will tell. Indeed... I will try to be less adversarial in my future posts. I too hope that you will fall in the first category. (no pun intended). And I will follow your lead in my future posts. ( less adversarial). SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
