BrianSGermain 1 #1 November 2, 2004 It seems to me that we need to think of what we do as two separate sports, the top part and the bottom part. Considering the situation this way, it occurs to me that we are spending too much time concerning ourselves with the top part, and not enough on the part of the experience that saves our lives. Our equipment is what saves our lives, and yet flying around in freefall is where most people focus their attention most. An equivalent amount of concern, thought and training needs to go into learning how to fly our parachutes better. In the end, perfect symmetrical freefall body position only makes a perfect symmetrical hole in the ground... Learn more, Live longer. +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #2 November 2, 2004 QuoteOur equipment is what saves our lives, and yet flying around in freefall is where most people focus their attention most. An equivalent amount of concern, thought and training needs to go into learning how to fly our parachutes better. bingo ,and thanks. QuoteIn the end, perfect symmetrical freefall body position only makes a perfect symmetrical hole in the ground... Love that."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #3 November 2, 2004 I agree. Here is one of my favorite quotes: Bill Booth - "Anyway, if I have one wish for this sport, it is that people would stop killing themselves swooping tiny canopies. What a useless waste of life." We all know that a disproportionate number of deaths now occur by people swooping. Most of these people do not have the experience or training to do it properly and die in the process. Another large group of incidents are inexperienced people doing low turns, i.e. not have mastered their canopies. I for one have no desire to die or be crippled and so I take learning canopy control very seriously. Here are a few of the things I’m doing: 1. Reading your book! (Which is excellent and I think all skydivers should buy and read it). 2. I’m very conservative with my wing loading. I’m adhering to the guidelines you set out. 3. I’m doing hop-n-pops on a regular basis to learn to fly my canopy better. There is nothing like 4 or 5 thousand feet of canopy work with no traffic around to experiment and learn. What a great way to learn and build muscle memory for flat turns, riser work, stall points, understand altitude loss of various maneuvers, etc, etc, etc…. 4. I talk to the most experienced canopy guys at my DZ (who are also instructors) about issues. Personally, I’d like to see more emphasis on canopy control in the licensing process. Why not require demonstrated proficiency for flat turns for a B license? Just my thoughts…."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #4 November 2, 2004 Totally agree. Been saying pretty much the same thing since I started about 7 years ago.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #5 November 2, 2004 QuoteTotally agree. Been saying pretty much the same thing since I started about 7 years ago Yes indeed! Considering that 3/4 of the skydive is under canopy I find it interesting that people don't spend more time learning to fly them. B Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #6 November 2, 2004 I used to describe to my friends people that lost altitude awareness and bounced as having had too much fun... all the way to the ground. Now we have people under fully open and functioning canopies trying to have too much fun all the way below ground level. Man it's tough when you have no room for distribution of error on the low side. We also have to make it cool NOT to swoop. A lot of us old farts are still just happy to get to the ground in one piece.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfrese 0 #7 November 2, 2004 Great list of learning tasks...but let's not be too hard on the swoopers. You should see Brian swoop that Sensei 81! You are perfectly correct about low turns being killers for people who have not mastered their canopies. But I was surprised (and kind of depressed) by another reaction I got... I recently took one of Brian's courses, and was telling two friends (one a TI and AFF-I with over 9000 jumps and hundreds of BASE jumps, the other a AFF-I with over 4000 jumps) how great it was, and how much I learned. They both had nearly identical replies that just stopped me cold: "Well, that's great for you guys that like to swoop, but I'm not gonna do any of that stuff. I always use the same approach, and I think all that front-riser nonsense is just dangerous." I actually spent a few minutes trying to convince them that the idea Brian consistently tries to get across is that if you don't understand how your parachute handles in all flight modes, eventually you're going to NEED to fly it in a way you haven't explored...usually with painful or tragic consequences. I didn't get very far with them, but I usually try to convince newer jumpers that learning all you can about your wing will probably work better for you than deciding "that stuff's just too dangerous." As for favorite quotes, mine is: "The superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations that require superior skill." Doctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgr 0 #8 November 2, 2004 Reginald, see billvon’s post … http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1320171#1320171 Also IMO … Student training programs should include at least one hop-n-pop from a higher altitude to work exclusively on canopy control. The student would not be thinking about the freefall objectives other than to safely get out the door and under their canopy. Get an instructor in the air with them or ensure that one is watching from the ground. Either way, you could provide radio assistance to the student and give them feedback as they work on their canopy control / survival skills. The student would have the time to focus on specific drills and apply the feedback provided by the instructor. This feedback, together with the repetition of the skill, would help the student build a positive memory of the task and improve their odds of being able to use that skill in an emergency situation. Of course, students would still work on their canopy control / survival skills on every jump. I just think that it’s worth committing the time – and resources – for students (and the rest of us on a routine basis!) to do at least one hop-n-pop from a higher altitude to work exclusively on canopy control. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #9 November 2, 2004 Canopy play time is fun. Nothing like doing a hop 'n' pop from full alti and using the next 13,000 ft. to try out front risers; rear risers; stalling your canopy; figuring out how much altitude is lost in a 360, 270, 180, 90; how much altitude is lost doing flat turns, etc. Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #10 November 2, 2004 QuoteGreat list of learning tasks...but let's not be too hard on the swoopers. You should see Brian swoop that Sensei 81! Quote Hey, I've got no qualms with people that have the experience and training swooping. It's the 400 jump wonders loaded at 1.6+ on elliptical canopies without any particular training that I've got a problem with."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 35 #11 November 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteGreat list of learning tasks...but let's not be too hard on the swoopers. You should see Brian swoop that Sensei 81! Quote Hey, I've got no qualms with people that have the experience and training swooping. It's the 400 jump wonders loaded at 1.6+ on elliptical canopies without any particular training that I've got a problem with. It depends on how those people acquired their training. Granted, loadings like that are extreme for anybody under 500 jumps, but if someone has had extensive direct training from a canopy expert early on, you can bet that person will be a much safer swooper than someone with the same number of jumps who tried to teach himself... Personally, I worked my way down the wingloading scale rather gradually, and don't jump ellipticals, but I know my Triathlon 120 well enough that I can turf-surf it 20+ yards in no winds, sink it in a tight spot, jump it on a level 2 demo, am PRO rated on it, do CRW with it, etc... and I load it 1.5 to 1... I didn't start to really swoop until I had 600 or so jumps. Even then, I don't swoop all the time, just when it feels right... If something's not right, I take the conservative way in... I do agree with Brian that not enough emphasis is placed on knowing your canopy and using survival skills to land it safely time and time again, regardless of the circumstances... Blue Skies Billy"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #12 November 2, 2004 QuoteOur equipment is what saves our lives, and yet flying around in freefall is where most people focus their attention most. An equivalent amount of concern, thought and training needs to go into learning how to fly our parachutes better. Right on! I have focused a major part of my time on canopy control. Sometimes I get kinda down about not being able to fly headdown, but then I think of how much fun I have with my canopy, and how much knowledge I have gained from your instruction and my continued attempt to make good use of it, and that makes me feel good! Maybe more people should focus on canopy flight and landings before freefall... shit happens and it sure is nice to have the knowledge to avoid danger. If you know how to save your life with your canopy in different situations, you'll live to learn headdown Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #13 November 2, 2004 >It seems to me that we need to think of what we do as two >separate sports, the top part and the bottom part. I think this is an outgrowth of the origins of the sport, where the parachute was just an aerodynamic decelerator that did little more than slow you down enough to survive the landing so you could freefall again. Nowadays it's an entirely different story. But I think that sort of separation is happening; there are people at Perris, Elsinore and Otay that are annoyed when they have to go to altitude, because for them it's the canopy ride that's the big thing. At those places we are lucky enough to have canopy coaches/schools (Evolution, Team Extreme) that cater to such people and help them through the process of downsizing and learning to swoop. But I agree, in many places freefall skills are emphasized way more than canopy skills are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #14 November 2, 2004 Conversly, there are some RW people that spend HUGE amounts of money on coaching, tunnel time, RW skill camps, have thousands of jumps and can't land accurately and standing up. To my way of thinking . . . that's just stupid.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #15 November 2, 2004 QuoteConversly, there are some RW people that spend HUGE amounts of money on coaching, tunnel time, RW skill camps, have thousands of jumps and can't land accurately and standing up. Becoming a skilled 4-way tech is not essential for long-term surviving in this sport. Becoming a skilled pilot is. Understanding this difference is not very easy when you are focused on discipline other than swooping. One of the most interesting concepts I have learned from Brian’s book is visualization and mental preparation for the canopy flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #16 November 2, 2004 Quote Understanding this difference is not very easy when you are focused on discipline other than swooping. Whoa, whoa , whoa . . . While I appreciate somebody that can perform a good swoop, I do NOT believe swooping is a required skill -at all-. If it were up to me a person wouldn't be allowed to even think about swooping until he had the landing requirements met for a PRO rating.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #17 November 3, 2004 QuoteWhoa, whoa , whoa . . . While I appreciate somebody that can perform a good swoop, I do NOT believe swooping is a required skill -at all-. If it were up to me a person wouldn't be allowed to even think about swooping until he had the landing requirements met for a PRO rating. I am afraid you are missing the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #18 November 3, 2004 Then perhaps you need to rephrase your statements so that I do. As they currently are, it sounds like you think swooping is the way to make the sport safer.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #19 November 3, 2004 QuoteBecoming a skilled 4-way tech is not essential for long-term surviving in this sport. Becoming a skilled pilot is. Understanding this difference is not very easy when you are focused on discipline other than swooping. I'm focused in a discipline other than swooping (CRW) that I think does a good job of developing long term survival skills. Accuracy jumpers can make a similar claim. Canopy piloting is a lot more than just swooping. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #20 November 3, 2004 QuoteThen perhaps you need to rephrase your statements so that I do. As they currently are, it sounds like you think swooping is the way to make the sport safer. First of all, there is no need for stabbing My point was along the same lines with the original post. Learning how to fly a canopy using all possible control inputs in different situations is more important for surviving than perfecting freefall skills. Swooping was used as an example of canopy piloting discipline. Obviously, CF falls into the same category. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianSGermain 1 #21 November 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteThen perhaps you need to rephrase your statements so that I do. As they currently are, it sounds like you think swooping is the way to make the sport safer. First of all, there is no need for stabbing My point was along the same lines with the original post. Learning how to fly a canopy using all possible control inputs in different situations is more important for surviving than perfecting freefall skills. Swooping was used as an example of canopy piloting discipline. Obviously, CF falls into the same category. Yes. This is not about learning how to beat others in some arbitrary competition. This is about survival. Our parachutes are the means by which we return to the earth, and if we want to minimize our risks, we need to be intimately connected to them. The science of parachute flight and other gear issues will always over-shadow freefall fun as dominant factor in our survival equation. Competitions, however, can be incredibly helpful. When we challenge ourselves to perform a specific task we find out what we are actually capable of. Sport accuracy is one of the most important challenges for achieving the goal of becoming a better, safer skydiver. Landing in a specific location and stopping there is essential to our long-term health. There is another unseen benefit to becoming an expert at canopy flight. Our overall fear begins to diminish. When we believe that the situation is mostly in our control, we feel safer. By being calmer and more at home in the sky, we are able to liberate our potential in the air. A scared skydiver is a bad skydiver, and most people could be more comfortable than they are under canopy. Learning about our parachutes, every aspect of it, allows us to expand our perceived ability (and actual ability), while becoming a better judge of the perceived risks (and actual risks). That's how we get old in this sport. Mind counters Gravity. +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeth 0 #22 November 3, 2004 I totally agree! I am just a student, but I have been frustrated with the lack of instruction on canopy control. In the syllabus, there are objectives for freefall and under canopy, but in the prep and the de-brief, the canopy stuff isn't even mentioned! These are the skills that will save my life, I can't believe they don't emphasize them more! I have even asked my instructors questions about flying the canopy and always get a "you'll figure it out" or "it depends on the wind". So far in my progression I am supposed to have done braked turns, deep yellow turns, caution stalls, and S-turns, but not once have my instructor asked me about doing any of those things while I'm under canopy. And yet, I've passed every level. I guess I just have to take it upon myself to try to practice these things and hope that I am doing them correctly. One great thing about this program is that they video all our jumps. But apparently they don't count the canopy ride as part of the jump, cuz that part isn't video'd or critiqued like the freefall. It really should be if they want us to learn to be safe under canopy."At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpinjackflash 0 #23 November 3, 2004 Kinda like pin checks.... Everyone carry's on about them. But watch on the plane loads. How many people do you see asking for one or giving one? Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done though. We all know the answer to that one. jjfIt's a gas, gas, gas... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #24 November 3, 2004 What you're saying comes as a huge surprise to me, only because I see you jump at skydive chicago under a much more advanced canopy at a much higher wingloading than most students learn under. Listening to some people, it sounds like skydive chicago students come off student status and start jumping stilletos... but it's ok because they give much much better canopy training to their students than most DZs (yes I'm exaggerating). I guess you can't exactly compare your training to anyone elses so maybe it really is better (but not what you hoped for), but it sure doesn't sound impressive to me. Edit: But don't worry too much about not learning everything about canopy control in 10 jumps. I don't have any clue what a couple things on your list mean, and I didn't do my first full stalls until I had over 200 jumps. Those things you mentioned are not things that have been traditionally taught to students. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be, but you still might be getting much better canopy training than students of the past. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chrisgr 0 #25 November 3, 2004 Beth, You are paying your instructors. You are paying for your jump ticket. You are probably paying for rental gear. You are already aware that you are not getting what you are paying for – instruction on essential canopy control skills that are necessary to save your life. Ask your instructor(s) that you be allowed to focus on these canopy control skills. Ask for the chance to practice these skills on at least one jump that is dedicated to canopy control. Ask for video, but don’t be surprised if you need to pay extra for this – it’s worth it. Continue to work on canopy control / survival skills on every jump, but take the time to make at least one hop-n-pop from a higher altitude to work exclusively on canopy control. If you do not get what you need, take your money elsewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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BillyVance 35 #11 November 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteGreat list of learning tasks...but let's not be too hard on the swoopers. You should see Brian swoop that Sensei 81! Quote Hey, I've got no qualms with people that have the experience and training swooping. It's the 400 jump wonders loaded at 1.6+ on elliptical canopies without any particular training that I've got a problem with. It depends on how those people acquired their training. Granted, loadings like that are extreme for anybody under 500 jumps, but if someone has had extensive direct training from a canopy expert early on, you can bet that person will be a much safer swooper than someone with the same number of jumps who tried to teach himself... Personally, I worked my way down the wingloading scale rather gradually, and don't jump ellipticals, but I know my Triathlon 120 well enough that I can turf-surf it 20+ yards in no winds, sink it in a tight spot, jump it on a level 2 demo, am PRO rated on it, do CRW with it, etc... and I load it 1.5 to 1... I didn't start to really swoop until I had 600 or so jumps. Even then, I don't swoop all the time, just when it feels right... If something's not right, I take the conservative way in... I do agree with Brian that not enough emphasis is placed on knowing your canopy and using survival skills to land it safely time and time again, regardless of the circumstances... Blue Skies Billy"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #12 November 2, 2004 QuoteOur equipment is what saves our lives, and yet flying around in freefall is where most people focus their attention most. An equivalent amount of concern, thought and training needs to go into learning how to fly our parachutes better. Right on! I have focused a major part of my time on canopy control. Sometimes I get kinda down about not being able to fly headdown, but then I think of how much fun I have with my canopy, and how much knowledge I have gained from your instruction and my continued attempt to make good use of it, and that makes me feel good! Maybe more people should focus on canopy flight and landings before freefall... shit happens and it sure is nice to have the knowledge to avoid danger. If you know how to save your life with your canopy in different situations, you'll live to learn headdown Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #13 November 2, 2004 >It seems to me that we need to think of what we do as two >separate sports, the top part and the bottom part. I think this is an outgrowth of the origins of the sport, where the parachute was just an aerodynamic decelerator that did little more than slow you down enough to survive the landing so you could freefall again. Nowadays it's an entirely different story. But I think that sort of separation is happening; there are people at Perris, Elsinore and Otay that are annoyed when they have to go to altitude, because for them it's the canopy ride that's the big thing. At those places we are lucky enough to have canopy coaches/schools (Evolution, Team Extreme) that cater to such people and help them through the process of downsizing and learning to swoop. But I agree, in many places freefall skills are emphasized way more than canopy skills are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #14 November 2, 2004 Conversly, there are some RW people that spend HUGE amounts of money on coaching, tunnel time, RW skill camps, have thousands of jumps and can't land accurately and standing up. To my way of thinking . . . that's just stupid.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #15 November 2, 2004 QuoteConversly, there are some RW people that spend HUGE amounts of money on coaching, tunnel time, RW skill camps, have thousands of jumps and can't land accurately and standing up. Becoming a skilled 4-way tech is not essential for long-term surviving in this sport. Becoming a skilled pilot is. Understanding this difference is not very easy when you are focused on discipline other than swooping. One of the most interesting concepts I have learned from Brian’s book is visualization and mental preparation for the canopy flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #16 November 2, 2004 Quote Understanding this difference is not very easy when you are focused on discipline other than swooping. Whoa, whoa , whoa . . . While I appreciate somebody that can perform a good swoop, I do NOT believe swooping is a required skill -at all-. If it were up to me a person wouldn't be allowed to even think about swooping until he had the landing requirements met for a PRO rating.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #17 November 3, 2004 QuoteWhoa, whoa , whoa . . . While I appreciate somebody that can perform a good swoop, I do NOT believe swooping is a required skill -at all-. If it were up to me a person wouldn't be allowed to even think about swooping until he had the landing requirements met for a PRO rating. I am afraid you are missing the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #18 November 3, 2004 Then perhaps you need to rephrase your statements so that I do. As they currently are, it sounds like you think swooping is the way to make the sport safer.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #19 November 3, 2004 QuoteBecoming a skilled 4-way tech is not essential for long-term surviving in this sport. Becoming a skilled pilot is. Understanding this difference is not very easy when you are focused on discipline other than swooping. I'm focused in a discipline other than swooping (CRW) that I think does a good job of developing long term survival skills. Accuracy jumpers can make a similar claim. Canopy piloting is a lot more than just swooping. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #20 November 3, 2004 QuoteThen perhaps you need to rephrase your statements so that I do. As they currently are, it sounds like you think swooping is the way to make the sport safer. First of all, there is no need for stabbing My point was along the same lines with the original post. Learning how to fly a canopy using all possible control inputs in different situations is more important for surviving than perfecting freefall skills. Swooping was used as an example of canopy piloting discipline. Obviously, CF falls into the same category. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianSGermain 1 #21 November 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteThen perhaps you need to rephrase your statements so that I do. As they currently are, it sounds like you think swooping is the way to make the sport safer. First of all, there is no need for stabbing My point was along the same lines with the original post. Learning how to fly a canopy using all possible control inputs in different situations is more important for surviving than perfecting freefall skills. Swooping was used as an example of canopy piloting discipline. Obviously, CF falls into the same category. Yes. This is not about learning how to beat others in some arbitrary competition. This is about survival. Our parachutes are the means by which we return to the earth, and if we want to minimize our risks, we need to be intimately connected to them. The science of parachute flight and other gear issues will always over-shadow freefall fun as dominant factor in our survival equation. Competitions, however, can be incredibly helpful. When we challenge ourselves to perform a specific task we find out what we are actually capable of. Sport accuracy is one of the most important challenges for achieving the goal of becoming a better, safer skydiver. Landing in a specific location and stopping there is essential to our long-term health. There is another unseen benefit to becoming an expert at canopy flight. Our overall fear begins to diminish. When we believe that the situation is mostly in our control, we feel safer. By being calmer and more at home in the sky, we are able to liberate our potential in the air. A scared skydiver is a bad skydiver, and most people could be more comfortable than they are under canopy. Learning about our parachutes, every aspect of it, allows us to expand our perceived ability (and actual ability), while becoming a better judge of the perceived risks (and actual risks). That's how we get old in this sport. Mind counters Gravity. +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeth 0 #22 November 3, 2004 I totally agree! I am just a student, but I have been frustrated with the lack of instruction on canopy control. In the syllabus, there are objectives for freefall and under canopy, but in the prep and the de-brief, the canopy stuff isn't even mentioned! These are the skills that will save my life, I can't believe they don't emphasize them more! I have even asked my instructors questions about flying the canopy and always get a "you'll figure it out" or "it depends on the wind". So far in my progression I am supposed to have done braked turns, deep yellow turns, caution stalls, and S-turns, but not once have my instructor asked me about doing any of those things while I'm under canopy. And yet, I've passed every level. I guess I just have to take it upon myself to try to practice these things and hope that I am doing them correctly. One great thing about this program is that they video all our jumps. But apparently they don't count the canopy ride as part of the jump, cuz that part isn't video'd or critiqued like the freefall. It really should be if they want us to learn to be safe under canopy."At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpinjackflash 0 #23 November 3, 2004 Kinda like pin checks.... Everyone carry's on about them. But watch on the plane loads. How many people do you see asking for one or giving one? Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done though. We all know the answer to that one. jjfIt's a gas, gas, gas... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #24 November 3, 2004 What you're saying comes as a huge surprise to me, only because I see you jump at skydive chicago under a much more advanced canopy at a much higher wingloading than most students learn under. Listening to some people, it sounds like skydive chicago students come off student status and start jumping stilletos... but it's ok because they give much much better canopy training to their students than most DZs (yes I'm exaggerating). I guess you can't exactly compare your training to anyone elses so maybe it really is better (but not what you hoped for), but it sure doesn't sound impressive to me. Edit: But don't worry too much about not learning everything about canopy control in 10 jumps. I don't have any clue what a couple things on your list mean, and I didn't do my first full stalls until I had over 200 jumps. Those things you mentioned are not things that have been traditionally taught to students. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be, but you still might be getting much better canopy training than students of the past. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chrisgr 0 #25 November 3, 2004 Beth, You are paying your instructors. You are paying for your jump ticket. You are probably paying for rental gear. You are already aware that you are not getting what you are paying for – instruction on essential canopy control skills that are necessary to save your life. Ask your instructor(s) that you be allowed to focus on these canopy control skills. Ask for the chance to practice these skills on at least one jump that is dedicated to canopy control. Ask for video, but don’t be surprised if you need to pay extra for this – it’s worth it. Continue to work on canopy control / survival skills on every jump, but take the time to make at least one hop-n-pop from a higher altitude to work exclusively on canopy control. If you do not get what you need, take your money elsewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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SkydiveNFlorida 0 #12 November 2, 2004 QuoteOur equipment is what saves our lives, and yet flying around in freefall is where most people focus their attention most. An equivalent amount of concern, thought and training needs to go into learning how to fly our parachutes better. Right on! I have focused a major part of my time on canopy control. Sometimes I get kinda down about not being able to fly headdown, but then I think of how much fun I have with my canopy, and how much knowledge I have gained from your instruction and my continued attempt to make good use of it, and that makes me feel good! Maybe more people should focus on canopy flight and landings before freefall... shit happens and it sure is nice to have the knowledge to avoid danger. If you know how to save your life with your canopy in different situations, you'll live to learn headdown Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #13 November 2, 2004 >It seems to me that we need to think of what we do as two >separate sports, the top part and the bottom part. I think this is an outgrowth of the origins of the sport, where the parachute was just an aerodynamic decelerator that did little more than slow you down enough to survive the landing so you could freefall again. Nowadays it's an entirely different story. But I think that sort of separation is happening; there are people at Perris, Elsinore and Otay that are annoyed when they have to go to altitude, because for them it's the canopy ride that's the big thing. At those places we are lucky enough to have canopy coaches/schools (Evolution, Team Extreme) that cater to such people and help them through the process of downsizing and learning to swoop. But I agree, in many places freefall skills are emphasized way more than canopy skills are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #14 November 2, 2004 Conversly, there are some RW people that spend HUGE amounts of money on coaching, tunnel time, RW skill camps, have thousands of jumps and can't land accurately and standing up. To my way of thinking . . . that's just stupid.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #15 November 2, 2004 QuoteConversly, there are some RW people that spend HUGE amounts of money on coaching, tunnel time, RW skill camps, have thousands of jumps and can't land accurately and standing up. Becoming a skilled 4-way tech is not essential for long-term surviving in this sport. Becoming a skilled pilot is. Understanding this difference is not very easy when you are focused on discipline other than swooping. One of the most interesting concepts I have learned from Brian’s book is visualization and mental preparation for the canopy flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #16 November 2, 2004 Quote Understanding this difference is not very easy when you are focused on discipline other than swooping. Whoa, whoa , whoa . . . While I appreciate somebody that can perform a good swoop, I do NOT believe swooping is a required skill -at all-. If it were up to me a person wouldn't be allowed to even think about swooping until he had the landing requirements met for a PRO rating.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #17 November 3, 2004 QuoteWhoa, whoa , whoa . . . While I appreciate somebody that can perform a good swoop, I do NOT believe swooping is a required skill -at all-. If it were up to me a person wouldn't be allowed to even think about swooping until he had the landing requirements met for a PRO rating. I am afraid you are missing the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #18 November 3, 2004 Then perhaps you need to rephrase your statements so that I do. As they currently are, it sounds like you think swooping is the way to make the sport safer.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #19 November 3, 2004 QuoteBecoming a skilled 4-way tech is not essential for long-term surviving in this sport. Becoming a skilled pilot is. Understanding this difference is not very easy when you are focused on discipline other than swooping. I'm focused in a discipline other than swooping (CRW) that I think does a good job of developing long term survival skills. Accuracy jumpers can make a similar claim. Canopy piloting is a lot more than just swooping. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #20 November 3, 2004 QuoteThen perhaps you need to rephrase your statements so that I do. As they currently are, it sounds like you think swooping is the way to make the sport safer. First of all, there is no need for stabbing My point was along the same lines with the original post. Learning how to fly a canopy using all possible control inputs in different situations is more important for surviving than perfecting freefall skills. Swooping was used as an example of canopy piloting discipline. Obviously, CF falls into the same category. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #21 November 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteThen perhaps you need to rephrase your statements so that I do. As they currently are, it sounds like you think swooping is the way to make the sport safer. First of all, there is no need for stabbing My point was along the same lines with the original post. Learning how to fly a canopy using all possible control inputs in different situations is more important for surviving than perfecting freefall skills. Swooping was used as an example of canopy piloting discipline. Obviously, CF falls into the same category. Yes. This is not about learning how to beat others in some arbitrary competition. This is about survival. Our parachutes are the means by which we return to the earth, and if we want to minimize our risks, we need to be intimately connected to them. The science of parachute flight and other gear issues will always over-shadow freefall fun as dominant factor in our survival equation. Competitions, however, can be incredibly helpful. When we challenge ourselves to perform a specific task we find out what we are actually capable of. Sport accuracy is one of the most important challenges for achieving the goal of becoming a better, safer skydiver. Landing in a specific location and stopping there is essential to our long-term health. There is another unseen benefit to becoming an expert at canopy flight. Our overall fear begins to diminish. When we believe that the situation is mostly in our control, we feel safer. By being calmer and more at home in the sky, we are able to liberate our potential in the air. A scared skydiver is a bad skydiver, and most people could be more comfortable than they are under canopy. Learning about our parachutes, every aspect of it, allows us to expand our perceived ability (and actual ability), while becoming a better judge of the perceived risks (and actual risks). That's how we get old in this sport. Mind counters Gravity. +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeth 0 #22 November 3, 2004 I totally agree! I am just a student, but I have been frustrated with the lack of instruction on canopy control. In the syllabus, there are objectives for freefall and under canopy, but in the prep and the de-brief, the canopy stuff isn't even mentioned! These are the skills that will save my life, I can't believe they don't emphasize them more! I have even asked my instructors questions about flying the canopy and always get a "you'll figure it out" or "it depends on the wind". So far in my progression I am supposed to have done braked turns, deep yellow turns, caution stalls, and S-turns, but not once have my instructor asked me about doing any of those things while I'm under canopy. And yet, I've passed every level. I guess I just have to take it upon myself to try to practice these things and hope that I am doing them correctly. One great thing about this program is that they video all our jumps. But apparently they don't count the canopy ride as part of the jump, cuz that part isn't video'd or critiqued like the freefall. It really should be if they want us to learn to be safe under canopy."At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinjackflash 0 #23 November 3, 2004 Kinda like pin checks.... Everyone carry's on about them. But watch on the plane loads. How many people do you see asking for one or giving one? Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done though. We all know the answer to that one. jjfIt's a gas, gas, gas... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #24 November 3, 2004 What you're saying comes as a huge surprise to me, only because I see you jump at skydive chicago under a much more advanced canopy at a much higher wingloading than most students learn under. Listening to some people, it sounds like skydive chicago students come off student status and start jumping stilletos... but it's ok because they give much much better canopy training to their students than most DZs (yes I'm exaggerating). I guess you can't exactly compare your training to anyone elses so maybe it really is better (but not what you hoped for), but it sure doesn't sound impressive to me. Edit: But don't worry too much about not learning everything about canopy control in 10 jumps. I don't have any clue what a couple things on your list mean, and I didn't do my first full stalls until I had over 200 jumps. Those things you mentioned are not things that have been traditionally taught to students. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be, but you still might be getting much better canopy training than students of the past. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgr 0 #25 November 3, 2004 Beth, You are paying your instructors. You are paying for your jump ticket. You are probably paying for rental gear. You are already aware that you are not getting what you are paying for – instruction on essential canopy control skills that are necessary to save your life. Ask your instructor(s) that you be allowed to focus on these canopy control skills. Ask for the chance to practice these skills on at least one jump that is dedicated to canopy control. Ask for video, but don’t be surprised if you need to pay extra for this – it’s worth it. Continue to work on canopy control / survival skills on every jump, but take the time to make at least one hop-n-pop from a higher altitude to work exclusively on canopy control. If you do not get what you need, take your money elsewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
