Spotting for FF'rs out first

[DJL 235]

Do/Should pilots spot shorter for situations where FF'rs, specifically a head down group, are out first? Is the throw really that much different?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[velo90 0]

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Do/Should pilots spot shorter for situations where FF'rs, specifically a head down group, are out first?

1st at my dropzone we always do the drop run into the wind.
If freeflyers insist on going 1st we always spot short. This helps in two ways, the first being, we can leave tons of time before the belly fliers go out, secondly, when the freefliers lands of short of the landing zone they might change their mind about going first.

[BASE813 0]

http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html

http://www.diverdriver.com/Spotting/Freefall_Drift/freefall_drift.htm

[The111 1]

Regardless of how different the throw is, it is my (very inexperienced) opinion that a spot shouldn't be so close that "throw" makes a difference whether or not you make the landing area. I.e., a good spot should allow you to go quite a bit past the landing area, as a sort of "safety factor" (engineering term) so even if you do get significantly more or less throw in different situations, you can still make the DZ no problem.

An analogy (and an example of safety factor) is that when you see a weight limit on something, an elevator for example, if the weight limit says 2000lbs, the elevator can probably realistically hold 2-3 times that much weight, depending on the safety factor. Analysis of any situation should always allow for error in either direction, and I don't think your spot should have to be so dead on that your body position on exit determines whether or not you make the DZ.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[psw097 0]

Good call PP, its starting to get warmer and we'll need to be putting the freefliers out first so we can be comfortable by the door and have plenty of room to get cameras ready.

Winter - freefliers out last, where its warm.
Summer - freefliers out first, near the cool air.

I don't see any safety concerns as long as no one does anything stupid.

[billvon 3,111]

>Do/Should pilots spot shorter for situations where FF'rs, specifically
> a head down group, are out first?

Yes. You can spot them shorter since they drift less.

>Regardless of how different the throw is, it is my (very
> inexperienced) opinion that a spot shouldn't be so close that "throw"
> makes a difference whether or not you make the landing area.

It's a small factor, but a factor nonetheless, and it applies to some aircraft (Casas, King Airs) more than others (Cessnas.)

>An analogy (and an example of safety factor) is that when you see a
>weight limit on something, an elevator for example, if the weight
> limit says 2000lbs, the elevator can probably realistically hold 2-3
>times that much weight, depending on the safety factor.

Slightly different situation. We have a situation in spotting where going under is just as bad as going over. There's an "ideal" place to exit, where if you exit there and open an unmodified round reserve you'll land in the peas (and if you cut away, all your stuff will land there too.) You can use the part of the jump run before and after that ideal spot. The more accurate that spot is, the more likely it is that people before and after that spot will make it to the DZ - so including throw in your spotting estimates can help everyone make the DZ.

[DJL 235]

New subject title.

To clarify for X000 jump jackasses like Webber, this isn't about FF's out before RW but maybe entire load of FF's in the HD out first scenario. What prompted this was that last week I exited after a 5 way HD. Usual separation had been 4 seconds regardless of jump type. I gave them 8. They had a solid exit and I took my time since I probably would have been right on top of them exiting in a big floppy sit. There was another load that had dropped before us and the guy after me said he had to track because there were canopies below him, nevermind that at that point they were probably flaring to land. Aside from the obvious, that my additional 4 seconds meant nothing, and not thinking about exit order:

Do pilots take climbout and group type into account on spots, or as The111 suggests, is it all within the N-factor that was supposed to have kept me from landing out as many times as I have?

I ask because I repeatedly hear people bitch about a bad spot because the first group took so long to get out. It seems like both jumpers and pilot don't even commence climbout until we're already AT the spot.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[kallend 2,146]

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Do/Should pilots spot shorter for situations where FF'rs, specifically a head down group, are out first? Is the throw really that much different?

The extra "throw" of a head-downer is worth about 3 seconds of airplane flight time. The reduced wind drift is probably worth more unless the uppers are very light. Probably all eaten up by their fiddling around in the door anyway.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BASE813 0]

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Do pilots take climbout and group type into account on spots,

I dont know if its because I have not skydived for a while but my thought was that the jumpers spotted and not the pilot!

[diverdriver 7]

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Do pilots take climbout and group type into account on spots, or as The111 suggests, is it all within the N-factor that was supposed to have kept me from landing out as many times as I have?

ABSOLUTELY I take into account what type of group AND which group (personally) is climbing out. I usually talk to the distinctive groups at some point and get a repor (sp?) going about what I think about spotting (how and when I turn the lights on) and what they are thinking. That way we are on the same page.

An example, we were practicing for the 98 RW Bigway record and Da Base captain and I were having issues with climbout timing. He was waiting in the door after my green light came on. I had the most information on winds, drift, and timing to make things more accurate. After a 100 way landed off Roger lined us both up and chewed some ass. You know, after Roger was done Norge and I looked at each other and got it all straightened out and it has set the way I deal with spotting bigways. I always talk to the guys in the door (whoever it's going to be) before we go up so we are all clear on what to expect. They should know exactly where over the ground they'll be when I turn on the door and climbout lights. I might adjust a couple of seconds sooner or later but we should be fairly close.

So, back to the question at hand, if I have FF exiting first I do turn on the green climbout light later (closer to actual exit spot) because they usually don't take as long to climb out as a large RW group or 4 way team AND I know they don't drift as much. Also, when you get really nerdy about it I also consider what kind of canopies they fly as to where I want them out. But that's all part of the "Art of Spotting."

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[diverdriver 7]

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Do pilots take climbout and group type into account on spots,

I dont know if its because I have not skydived for a while but my thought was that the jumpers spotted and not the pilot!

You should ALWAYS look down for traffic. But what's the difference between and experienced jump pilot up front with MORE info than you looking down out the back at the ground?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[billvon 3,111]

>So, back to the question at hand, if I have FF exiting first I do turn
>on the green climbout light later (closer to actual exit spot) because
> they usually don't take as long to climb out as a large RW group . . .

Good point, although that seems more like absolute size than group type (i.e. an RW 4-way seems to launch about as fast as an intricate FF 4-way.)

>AND I know they don't drift as much.

?? If a group doesn't get blown back as far, wouldn't that suggest you should turn the light on earlier? Think about the converse - if you had some really slow fallers you'd turn the light on later because they'd get pushed back a lot farther (assuming jump run into the wind.)

[diverdriver 7]

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>So, back to the question at hand, if I have FF exiting first I do turn
>on the green climbout light later (closer to actual exit spot) because
> they usually don't take as long to climb out as a large RW group . . .

Good point, although that seems more like absolute size than group type (i.e. an RW 4-way seems to launch about as fast as an intricate FF 4-way.)

>AND I know they don't drift as much.

?? If a group doesn't get blown back as far, wouldn't that suggest you should turn the light on earlier? Think about the converse - if you had some really slow fallers you'd turn the light on later because they'd get pushed back a lot farther (assuming jump run into the wind.)

Again, it has a lot to do with exit type. Many FF exits are all freeflown so no intricate setup is necessary like 4-way. So, usually they take less time in the door. If they are going to go relatively straight down to where they exit (assuming normal summer winds for me) I would turn the light on later.

However, you are right. If it is a seriously intricate FF launch with lots of grips the light would then go on earlier again. I just don't see it as much.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125