Spotting a landing spot perpendicular to current direction of flight.

[tdog 0]

Question… You can spot a probable landing point by finding the spot that does not appear to be going up or down, but is just getting bigger as you fly towards it.

Lets take that one step further…

Pretend you are flying on X-wind leg of a traditional landing and your desired spot is to your left at about 90 degrees… Do you find the spot, even off axis of your current flying direction, will exhibit the same qualities of not appearing to be going up or down? If so, how useful is it to you when you are judging your turns to the spot, or what other techniques do you prefer.

For the sake of the question – assume wind speed is zero and any turns you do will not change your rate of decent or glide slope – as these factors have to be added back in…

[pilotdave 0]

It is MUCH harder to judge that moving up or moving down sensation when looking off to the side. Probably impossible. Knowing when to turn in toward your target just comes from experience. Finding that non-moving spot works great for judging where you'll end up on a really long spot when you're not sure if you're gonna make it where you need to or not. But really close in, you'll pretty much know where to turn based on the winds and your last jump, etc.

Dave

[councilman24 37]

One problem is that there isn't one spot. It's a line of spots constantly changing parallel to your line of flight. Forget about trying to use this. You should be looking for other canopies!

This is useful for a long spot as stated above. Or a high setup and determining if you need to use breaks or not. For dynamic landings approaches (ones with turns) you'll learn to judge what you need to know. You know when to start turning the wheel of your car to hit your driveway, right? It's a little harder because it's 3-d and adds wind effects, etc. but you'll learn through experience.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JohnMitchell 16]

Wow, what a question! If you are on the base leg of your pattern and looking left to your target, you will see it appear to rise as you get lower and lower. Using risers or toggles to adjust your rate of descent will change the rate at which your target appears to rise, nothing more. Like Urban said, the sweet spot trick, or accuracy trick I've heard Jon LeBlanc call it, is for when you're looking forward, trying to make progress to a distant spot.

When on base leg of your pattern, you are watching your elevation angle to the target, adjusting your base leg so that you intercept the wind line of the target at the correct glide slope angle to land on target with a minimum of adjustment on final approach. That angle changes with wind speed, type of canopy, and where you're holding the toggles. Practice, practice, practice.

[ZoneRat 0]

That's exactly how I do it. I use the Accuracy trick on base and final both. On base, the spot will go up or down and I adjust my turn to final to compensate.

The Accuracy trick is excellent, but as mentioned, traffic awareness and avoidance takes priority. Locking your vision on a spot for extended periods of time is ill advised. Head on a swivel, use the check for 3-4 sec's, head on a swivel.

Great question!

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[tdog 0]

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That's exactly how I do it. I use the Accuracy trick on base and final both. On base, the spot will go up or down and I adjust my turn to final to compensate.

Thanks for the info... I tried "testing" this theory on a 737 - but the glide slope was so flat and ground speed so fast I had a hard time getting consistent results. (But what else are you going to do when you are sitting in a plane they won't let you jump out of...)

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The Accuracy trick is excellent, but as mentioned, traffic awareness and avoidance takes priority.

The very reason I asked the question here - as I did not want to spend my whole traffic pattern seeing if it worked instead of keeping a lookout for others. If I know it works somewhat, I can take a quick glance and fine tune it safely when I know I am clear of others.

[airtwardo 7]

I PM'd you a simple "Demo" approach system
that will get you there, and greatly advance the
learning curve so 'eyeballing' it becomes more natural.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[quade 4]

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That's exactly how I do it. I use the Accuracy trick on base and final both. On base, the spot will go up or down and I adjust my turn to final to compensate.

Two little minor notes about using the "Accuracy Trick" while on your base leg.

1) You absolutely have to account for the extra descent rate you'll get when you turn base to final.

2) It doesn't work in conditions with winds above zero and in windy conditions you'd end up short every time. (Again, let me clarify, I'm ONLY taking about when you use in on your base leg.)

When you're using the "Accuracy Trick" the spot that doesn't move is accurate if you're facing the wind on final, but at all other times with wind above zero it would not be taking into account the head wind you'd encounter once turned into the wind. Yes, it's a semi-accurate indication of how far you'd go in the direction you're currently heading, but if you're heading in any other direction other than what will be your final . . . it can't possibly work.

Imagine a canopy with a forward speed of 20 knots flying it's base leg in a 20 knot wind. (Let's leave any crabbing effects out of this thought experiment for now.)

In order for the canopy pilot to hit the target, his base leg needs to take him straight over the target. Once over the target he can then turn final which would give him zero forward movement over the ground. Using the "Accuracy Trick" on base would have given him a visual of a spot that did not move quite a bit upwind of where he'd actually land and if he had used that and centered that spot over his target, he would have ending up being quite a bit downwind.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tdog 0]

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Two little minor notes about using the "Accuracy Trick" while on your base leg.

1) You absolutely have to account for the extra descent rate you'll get when you turn base to final.

2) It doesn't work in conditions with winds above zero and in windy conditions you'd end up short every time. (Again, let me clarify, I'm ONLY taking about when you use in on your base leg.)

Yep, I agree, as I said in the first post of the thread:

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For the sake of the question – assume wind speed is zero and any turns you do will not change your rate of decent or glide slope – as these factors have to be added back in…

Clearly you are correct, you have to take into consideration any wind you will encounter on final... I was hoping to answer the question if the accuracy trick works off axis in no wind and without any loss in turns, and it seems that it does from what people are saying.

Thanks for the feedback. As usual I am learning a lot from you guys...

[JohnMitchell 16]

IMHO, the accuracy trick works when you are flying to the reference point, not at a 90 degree angle to it. When you are sideways to the target, on your base leg, you are looking to intercept the perfect glideslope to the target, hopefully on wind line. You are not looking for a certain point to hold still, or anything like that, you are looking to reach a certain angle between you and the target. As I said earlier, that angle varies, depending mostly on wind, but also type canopy and toggle position. Once you are on final, heading straight for the target, then the accuracy trick comes into play. That is how you land dead center. Yes, I've actually down this.

If you watch a good jumper shooting accuracy, you'll see them hold into the wind at about 1000 feet in half brakes, checking their penetration into the wind. This gives them an idea of what the perfect angle to the target will be, so they know when and where to turn from base to final, and how it should look. It's all about knowing how to work a landing pattern.

[airtwardo 7]

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If you watch a good jumper shooting accuracy, you'll see them hold into the wind at about 1000 feet in half brakes, checking their penetration into the wind. This gives them an idea of what the perfect angle to the target will be, so they know when and where to turn from base to final, and how it should look. It's all about knowing how to work a landing pattern.

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I sent him a PM describing a variation of that
type of approach.

He has a lot of para gliding behind him, and has perhaps
a better understanding regarding the dynamics than
would the 'average' person with his jump numbers.

Depending on the dropzone traffic, sometimes it isn't
advisable to face into the wind on what may be the
'pre-set' down wind leg approach...
as you're then facing the oncoming traffic.

Another way of doing that is to do a 90 degree turn
toward the target and hold brakes.
..you get a pretty good read from the 'side slip'
effect of the wind as to where to start the base.

If...for example at 1500 feet,
you are a beam the target 90 degrees off the wind line
and are getting a really stiff side drift...
you 'may' already BE on the base leg,
from right there.

less side drift, and take it down wind some more...


If you find that you've turned in to early or the
lower winds are less-
you can bleed off the excess altitude with slow flat
"S" turns that keep the wing still 'essentially' pointing
into the wind.

Utilizing the "S" turn method tends to keep less
experienced jumpers from teetering on the stall line
when attempting to keep from overshooting.

A good accuracy jumper, as you said...
can do it all with toggle input.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~