efs4ever 3 #1 November 29, 2004 I have some girlfriends who are experienced tandem jumpers. (Hope they aren't reading this) I own my own tandem equipment, have the appropriate ratings and provide all gear. I've jumped at many DZ's with this configuration, and all just charge us for the slots. We've made jumps at Rantoul, Skydive Texas, Sky's the limit, Beeville, Texas, Skydive Houston, Skydive Spaceland, Marana Skydiving Center, Taft, Skydive San Marcos (That was just a favor for a soldier, but thanks Phil) Skydive USA and Moss Point. (Had a great time at every place, THANKS TO ALL OF YOU) Today, however, after traveling many miles to visit an out of town place I was shocked to find that the DZO wanted an extra FIFTY BUCKS for us to make a jump together. I talked him down to 25, made the jump and left. Instead of us getting several jumps, we had to leave or go broke jumping. Should an experienced jumper be charged EXTRA just because she chooses only to ride on a tandem, and the DZ does NOT provide any of the gear? Explain if necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 November 29, 2004 As long as you're not running your own side tandem business, charging students for the jump and taking them outside of the DZ's instructional program, then I don't see why an extra charge would be in order. If you were running a side tandem business outside of the DZ's instructional program then I don't see why you'd be charged more, I would just expect that you'd be asked to leave the DZ (which would be fair).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efs4ever 3 #3 November 29, 2004 I explained that she had 13 jumps, and that I was the one having to PAY. If I bring a paying student, I TELL them and work it out.Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 November 29, 2004 Wasn't implying otherwise, just stating my overall opinion in these matters. Then again, I'm not a DZO (nor do I ever want to be) so its only an opinion, which is about as useful for running a DZ as my dirty socks are.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #5 November 29, 2004 The simple answer should be NO, they shouldn't charge you more then 2 slots. BUT, it's their DZ and they can be an ASS if they wish. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #6 November 29, 2004 My knee-jerk reaction is to say no, but if I owned a DZ I would probably charge something, as that is business that would be paying my JM's if not for you. It's kind of like competition, even tho you brought your own student. I guess if you just brought 1 student I wouldn't make that big of a deal, but I wouldn't want to get that trend going. And if you guys bounced, then it would look as if it was one of my tandems. I dunno, I guess it depneds on whether I got laid the night before!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efs4ever 3 #7 November 29, 2004 QuoteMy knee-jerk reaction is to say no, but if I owned a DZ I would probably charge something, as that is business that would be paying my JM's if not for you. It's kind of like competition, even tho you brought your own student. I guess if you just brought 1 student I wouldn't make that big of a deal, but I wouldn't want to get that trend going. And if you guys bounced, then it would look as if it was one of my tandems. I dunno, I guess it depneds on whether I got laid the night before!!! My girlfriend, traveling with me from out of town, is NOT someone in the pool of people EVER likely to go make a tandem jump at a dz I visit, thus, not taking beans outa the pot of some TI. Me having a "complete day" with my passenger is also NOT an event that deprives some poor local TI out of a paid jump. Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #8 November 29, 2004 If you are visiting a drop zone, the DZO does not know you personally, he is taking on some added risk letting someone do a tandem there. I can understand them wanting to charge a little extra. Someone taking someone on a tandem, other than a licensed skydiver, is adding risk to their business. Does this "tandem passenger" belong to USPA, if not, there is no insurance coverage for the dz either. Deland charges $60 (this includes the slots)for me taking anon-skydiver on a tandem, I have no problem with this and have taken several people like you are describing on tandems there.blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efs4ever 3 #9 November 29, 2004 QuoteIf you are visiting a drop zone, the DZO does not know you personally, he is taking on some added risk letting someone do a tandem there. I can understand them wanting to charge a little extra. Someone taking someone on a tandem, other than a licensed skydiver, is adding risk to their business. Does this "tandem passenger" belong to USPA, if not, there is no insurance coverage for the dz either. Deland charges $60 (this includes the slots)for me taking anon-skydiver on a tandem, I have no problem with this and have taken several people like you are describing on tandems there. In this case, her USPA was expired. (I would have re-joined her if they wanted) In all other cases my friends WERE USPA members. Our system of ratings and documentation, along with my logbook should be sufficient evidence that I am who I say I am. Someone with 13 jumps is not necessarily a "non skydiver" I would expect to, and gladly would pay, extra for a first timer at any DZ.Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pope 0 #10 November 29, 2004 seems like the dz is taking on an "extra" liability by letting a TM that is not under some sort of contractual obligation jump with an unlicensed passenger. In this litigious, sue-happy country, I think it's at LEAST fair to either not let you jump--I think charging a bit extra is no big deal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efs4ever 3 #11 November 29, 2004 Quote bit extra is no big deal. Fifty bucks is a big deal. Twenty Five is too. Remember, tandem is not "experimental" any more. I had to point out a mis routed cable to one of their own tandem instructors as he was boarding the plane Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #12 November 29, 2004 If it were my DZ I think 2 slots plus some, would be in order, as stated beffore it's all well & good when things are going great, but if things turn out crap, then it's a very bad relection on the DZ. The papers aren't going to bother with finding out if the TM was a blow in or an employeeYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #13 November 29, 2004 Hi EFS JMO:I agree with you, shouldn't have happened but some DZO.'s are "better business" persons" nicer folks" what ever than other's. Might have helped if you knew some locals. Their DZ their way or the highway You took the highwayR.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #14 November 29, 2004 Well. Liability Insurance is a bitch in this industry. Was he/she perhaps considering this? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #15 November 29, 2004 I think calling ahead and explaining the situation to management before you got there might have worked better. Kind of ease the DZO into the situation instead of getting a knee jerk reaction the day of the jump. If I were a DZO, I'd like to think I'd allow it, if it wasn't taking students from my pool. If you wanted to use your own rig and do some of my students, we'd work out some kind of agreement where I'd profit and you'd be paid extra for using your own rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #16 November 29, 2004 But it is also not just another skydive, so him charging a little extra is not out of line. $25 bucks extra, c'mon, what is the big deal. To tell you the truth, if I had a set precedent at my drop zone (this DZO seem to have one), I am not going to change it for anyone, no if's, and's or but's about it, makes things too messy.blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #17 November 29, 2004 Short answer: No. Longer answer: As long as you were current (proof is your logbook) Gear was in Date. Waivers were signed. BOTH were USPA members. (She is not a one time student....SO I'd require USPA membership.) You were not taking away from my student pool...You brought her. I'd let you jump. If I saw you talking to my students, or trying to "steal" my students, you would be asked to leave. I doubt I would let you jump with students that were coming to my DZ to do a tandem. But if you brought your own, I would sell you slots on the plane and let you jump. Zhills does this. Bring your own gear and your own students, jump all ya want. John had the best plan...Next time call ahead and ask."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,483 #18 November 29, 2004 1) One thing not asked was "Opportunity Cost." Were there other paying tandems that were pushed to a later load; or weather/time jeopardized by being pushed to the next day? 2) You don't explain why this "experienced" skydiver wasn't jumping on their own?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flypunk 0 #19 November 29, 2004 would the opportunity cost apply to lets say two experienced jumpers visiting the dz, since they take up the same two slots? regarding USPA membership...how would this person be different than any other tandem? There seem to be a lot of people saying that it is ok to charge the $50, cuz if things go bad then it would look bad on the dz.... so the $50 woud prevent things from going bad? and if not, then is $50 worth taking the risk of a tandem going bad at your DZ? ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,483 #20 November 29, 2004 The question was regarding if there was a full day of full paying tandem students, not experienced skydivers. During this time of year, if there were full paying tandems waiting and the day was getting late jeopardizing the full-pays ability to jump - that would be the opportunity cost.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #21 November 29, 2004 Quoteregarding USPA membership...how would this person be different than any other tandem? If they are a GM DZ then they sort of have to require USPA membership. From the USPA Group Membership Manual: QuoteRequire individual USPA membership for all nonstudent (A-license qualified) skydivers who are jumping at its facilities. Encourage USPA membership among student skydivers. One could argue that while a person with 13 Tandem jumps is still just a tandem student and since they don't have an "A" license that they would not need the USPA membership....However, it could also be argued that a person with 13 tandem jumps that has no interest in getting a license is not a "Student" Since it seems this person has chosen to be only a Tandem skydiver.....They are not a student. And in this case it seem she WAS a member of the USPA. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1363700#1363700 So asking her to be a member if the DZ was a GM is a small request. And last I checked managment reserves the right to refuse service."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flypunk 0 #22 November 29, 2004 I agree with the renewal of the uspa, just didnt know why it was necesary on the first place. thanks for the clarification. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efs4ever 3 #23 November 29, 2004 Generally, I buy my girlfriends a USPA if they continue jumping with me. (Or a FJC if she so desires) Most have chosen to take the "Jump with RW" route, howver. Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efs4ever 3 #24 November 30, 2004 Quote1) One thing not asked was "Opportunity Cost." Were there other paying tandems that were pushed to a later load; or weather/time jeopardized by being pushed to the next day? 2) You don't explain why this "experienced" skydiver wasn't jumping on their own? 1. We got the last two slots before the plane took off that would have been EMPTY. We got out at 9500 to clear the traffic. 2. She doesn't want to, and probably would be incapable for various reasons.Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,483 #25 November 30, 2004 QuoteWe got the last two slots before the plane took off that would have been EMPTY. About the only thing I can figure is that most C-182 DZ's have a 3 person minimum for a jump. About the only way the operation can even break even.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
