Cut away question

[Superman32 0]

This is a question that I' taking away from a previous threat by Darius11:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1410409;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


I've taken the ground school class and a refresher -- shitty weather-- anyway, I was told that if you have a steerable canopy you should keep it and use the rear risers to control it, b/c if you have something above your head don't take a chance on the reserve which might not work.
My question is, if you decide to use the rear risers how fast are you really hitting the ground?
It seems to me that I would be taking a chance by relying on the reserve, but I would be taking a bigger chance of injury by waiting to PLF on a "wounded" canopy.

I'll ask my instructors, the next time I go to the DZ. but what do you guys think?

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[nate_1979 9]

Look for my post in that same thread about what happened when I did just that... I almost killed myself... If it doesnt work RIGHT, trust the reserve. IMO.. Mabey in a bit i'll post the exact wording from my log book and explain the whole thing a little more if you want..

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Superman32 0]

30 mph is pretty f'ing fast. Were you injured at all?
It would be great if you give more detail to the thread. Thanx

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[Dougiefresh 0]

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what do you guys think?

I think you should ask your instructors.

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I'll ask my instructors

Good.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[sunshine 2]

*Edited cause i no longer care if newbies give each other bad advice and kill each other.*

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[nate_1979 9]

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30 mph is pretty f'ing fast. Were you injured at all?
It would be great if you give more detail to the thread. Thanx

It was probably just a bit less than that.. but the winds were about 10-12 MPH, I did a cross wind landing which had me pointed more WITH the wind than against it, they say a canopy flys about 20mph? so, somewhere in there...

Anyway, the whole dive went really bad, the freefall portion of the AFF 3 was horrible, lost my reserve side AFF-I early on and wasnt stable till about 7k, then just went straight down till 5.5k, pulled, looked up everything looked great on the canopy, I was happy that the bad part of that skydive was over with (As were my AFF-I's i'm sure) ... Then I went for my toggles, one of them came unstowed no problems, the other was stuck.. I was pulling on the toggle hard enough to pull the riser down quite aways trying to get it unstowed, no luck.. So now I have a canopy with one brake unstowed and one stowed, which naturally causes a turn with no inputs what-so-ever... I try to do some steering and it seems to me at 4.5k to be plunty controllable.. Anyway, coming in for landing pattern, 1000 feet on first leg, flying kind of straight, never completed the second leg, just flew a path between what the first and second legs should have been, was unable to get the canopy to turn like I had thought.. Was heading straight for a building at pretty high speeds, ended up turning right again (left hand pattern) to miss the building barely, could have kicked it as I went by.. I would have hit right into the side of the building, canopy probably flying over the roof me in the wall.. I remember giving a textbook PLF, other than scraped up hands and sore legs and knee was not hurt.. I was shaking for about an hour afterwords though, then got the ass-chewing of my life for not cutting away.. One thing my instructor told me (or yelled) was that if it does not pass the str8/left/right/flare test get rid of it, my canopy clearly failed this test by not being able to fly straight. He also said it is probably one of the scariest things you will ever do, seeing as how you have a canopy above your head that looks good and has stopped your freefall,and now your going to just chop, re-enter freefall, and pull your last resort... After that experiance, I learned a big lesson, I will not hesitate to cut away something I cant fix again. BTW I was still kinda turning when I landed, didnt get much flare... Lucky it was a 260..

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[nate_1979 9]

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Next time you're under a good canopy and have plenty of altitude, play with your rear risers. Me personally, i dont' have the strength to flare with them. Reserve malfunctions are rare, and you gotta have faith that it will work. Don't chop a perfectly good canopy for no reason, but if you can't properly land the main, it's time to chop.

Or better yet (after talking to instructors) unstow one break and see how the canopy flies then.... Just make sure you unstow both of them in time to do full control checks while your still high enough to realize you have a real problem

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[sunshine 2]

*Edited cause i no longer care if newbies give each other bad advice and kill each other.*

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[nate_1979 9]

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Or better yet (after talking to instructors) unstow one break and see how the canopy flies then.... Just make sure you unstow both of them in time to do full control checks while your still high enough to realize you have a real problem

What was i thinking? I'm just an 900 jump wonder...of course you would know more than me...

Umm, ok, chill, wasnt trying to come accross like that! jez..

edited to add: He was questioning a specific canopy problem, just suggested a way that he could see what it's like himself... I know I'm low jump numbers, not trying to second guess anyone here, which is why I also said after talking to instructors eh?

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Superman32 0]

Lets not make this a peepee contest

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[winsor 236]

The only way I would try to land a canopy with a stuck brake is if I was too low to address the issue. If I'm in that situation, I have already screwed up about five different ways, am on a roll, and can expect to get hurt anyway.

I always clear my brakes above two grand so that I don't have any nasty surprises near the ground if they choose to hang up.

If I concluded that I couldn't undo one before my hard deck, there is a good chance that I would select which hook knife to use, cut the offending line, and continue with rear risers. I have landed canopies by use of the rear risers, so it is not a last-ditch maneuver in my case. Replacing a cut steering line is cheap, fast and easy, and is a hell of a lot less fuss than is a trip to the Trauma Center. I have known people to get killed rather than risk damaging or losing equipment (no fooling).

If you haven't, it's a good idea to get some practice flying and flaring with rear risers when your back is not up against the wall. My experience is that if you try to flare as vigorously as you would with toggles, you are a LOT more likely to stall the canopy and pound the landing. You want to get your flare wired before you have the ground rushing up at you.

A few suggestions are:

1) Talk it over with instructors. I do.
2) Make your decisions at altitude.
3) Have a plan, and go with it. Indecision can be fatal (or at least really painful).
4) Practice your emergency procedures (flat turns, riser control, etc.) when things are otherwise working well.
5) Again, go over it with someone with the right credentials, who you know and trust. Let this forum provide you with questions, not answers.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[winsor 236]

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My question is, if you decide to use the rear risers how fast are you really hitting the ground?

If you do it right, it's at least as nice of a landing as you could expect with toggles.

The control input is different (less is more), so practice is the key.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[FrogNog 1]

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... I was told that if you have a steerable canopy you should keep it ...

When I was a student I was taught something slightly different: a landable canopy.

It all boils down to what you think you can safely land. (Or, put another way, what you want to land.)

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[cvfd1399 0]

I have 56 jumps and 3 rear riser landings. All I can tell you is that I jump a huge canopy, and was faced with what I thought was non threatning malfunctions all involving stuck or broken steering lines. Your rear risers will most likley stall your canopy sooner. It pulls down the whole tale insead of the corners, and it only takes a few inches to do the trick. If you have to do it for real practice up high and time how long it takes to almost stall. Line up for landing and rest if you can as it takes some strength. Knowing about how long it took to almost stall mentally and visually calculate your rate of decent and the amout of time you will need to start the rear riser flare and PLF the hell out of it just in case. My first RR landing I bruised my tailbone, the next one I skidded out and the third I stood up. My plan is that if it is stable and steerable and the winds are not rediculus I will land a rear riser landing before I trust my one and only last chance.

[Superman32 0]

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*Edited cause i no longer care if newbies give each other bad advice and kill each other.*

___________________________________________
~Sunny

Jeeezzz, that is just super harsh

I am a newbie and I'm very much aware that I don't know anything about anything when it comes to skydiving, but I do know that as with any other aspect in life, you should never take anyone's opinion as an absolute truth. A wise person learns by grasping as much as he/she can from as many sources as possible.
I'm sorry that you were offended Sunny, but I do appreciate as much input as possible and hopefully one day I'll be the one giving advice.

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[Fast 0]

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*Edited cause i no longer care if newbies give each other bad advice and kill each other.*

___________________________________________
~Sunny

Jeeezzz, that is just super harsh

I am a newbie and I'm very much aware that I don't know anything about anything when it comes to skydiving, but I do know that as with any other aspect in life, you should never take anyone's opinion as an absolute truth. A wise person learns by grasping as much as he/she can from as many sources as possible.
I'm sorry that you were offended Sunny, but I do appreciate as much input as possible and hopefully one day I'll be the one giving advice.

Yeah, but more experienced people get sick of watching newbies come here and get answers from other newbies who shouldn't be giving it. The problem isn't offering an opinion the problem is that it sounds like gospel and you have to understand that a person may just go out and do what you say w/o asking their instructor.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[ChrisL 2]

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Yeah, but more experienced people get sick of watching newbies come here and get answers from other newbies who shouldn't be giving it. The problem isn't offering an opinion the problem is that it sounds like gospel and you have to understand that a person may just go out and do what you say w/o asking their instructor.

No, it was just super harsh and pretty much uncalled for.
Certainly not something to be directed at someone that is simply asking for advice.

Its true, people with little experience should not be giving advice. I dont give advice on skydiving.

As an experienced human being, though I feel fully qualified in saying that crapping on the newbie thats simply asking for advice and information is just nasty and uncalled for.

__

My mighty steed

[Fast 0]

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Yeah, but more experienced people get sick of watching newbies come here and get answers from other newbies who shouldn't be giving it. The problem isn't offering an opinion the problem is that it sounds like gospel and you have to understand that a person may just go out and do what you say w/o asking their instructor.

No, it was just super harsh and pretty much uncalled for.
Certainly not something to be directed at someone that is simply asking for advice.

Its true, people with little experience should not be giving advice. I dont give advice on skydiving.

As an experienced human being, though I feel fully qualified in saying that crapping on the newbie thats simply asking for advice and information is just nasty and uncalled for.

I don't think that it was directed at the person who was asking for some advice. Coming here to ask questions is better than not asking them (And asking an instructor in person is even better than that) the problem is when the answers come from people who shouldn't be giving them.

Maybe a little harsh, but I can understand the frustration. My only point in joining this thread was to give some explanation to the situation.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[kelpdiver 2]

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Yeah, but more experienced people get sick of watching newbies come here and get answers from other newbies who shouldn't be giving it. The problem isn't offering an opinion the problem is that it sounds like gospel and you have to understand that a person may just go out and do what you say w/o asking their instructor.

just think - if she said why the advice was bad rather than merely wishing them ill health, both the initial asker and the newbie replier would be better off. And if she was in fact the wrong one, she'd now know. It's not like I haven't had TIs telling me to use the 45 degree rule to give them enough space before I follow.

Would have taken just as long to type, too.

[sunshine 2]

Thanks Fast, you're a sweetie.
The edited comment was not directed at the thread author, but the 47 jump wonder that thinks he's qualified to be giving advice. I don't really wish anyone to get hurt or die, but i'm so tired of seeing newbies give advice when they're not qualified to.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[nate_1979 9]

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Thanks Fast, you're a sweetie.
The edited comment was not directed at the thread author, but the 47 jump wonder that thinks he's qualified to be giving advice. I don't really wish anyone to get hurt or die, but i'm so tired of seeing newbies give advice when they're not qualified to.

And this 47 jump wonder makes it VERY clear in most of my posts that I am a newbie and I WAS VERY SPECIFIC to say talk to an instructor first... We were talking about a very SPECIFIC malfunction that I have happened to experience, and I happened to make ALOT of bad choices when i did experience it.. SOOOORRRY for sharing my experience so that others may not make the same mistakes that I feel could have resulted in my death had I not been so damn lucky! IMO the attitude you had in your origional post (and the edited one) was uncalled for, but who am I

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[jumperconway 0]

Your reserve is there for a reason and is packed by a rigger that I suspect that you trust! I have landed 2 stuck break lines and broke the same big toe on each, I cut away the next one! These were all with over 1000 jumps at the time!

[nate_1979 9]

Sorry to those who think I should drop this, but I just got this from a checklist posted under the Gear and Rigging forum, ... So, tell me again how my post was advice which would constitute newbies killing eachother with bad advice? (Once again stressing that I posted "talk to your instructor") ??

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DRILL #1: RISER TURNS
Once you’re open, leave your toggles stowed. Practice turning with your rear and front risers. Try to see if you
can control the canopy simply by shifting your weight in the harness. Practice flaring with your rear risers with
the toggles stowed. Do this same series of exercises with one brake released, simulating a broken steering line.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[crazydiver 0]

I would never suggest landing a canopy with uneven controls unless you can do a perfect full flare up high and are above your hard deck. If it were me, i would chop it. Stuck brakes are rare. I have only had one that I couldn't clear and so I simply pulled the unstowed steering line back through the guide and re-stowed my brake toggle. Then landed with rear risers. If you have the ability and awareness to fix something and even out your canopy...go for it. I suggest to all students and low timers as well as people with a new canopy, test your parameters. Practice rear riser flares up high. Work your way to rear riser flares on the ground. It can be done. I load my Jedei 120 at about 1.6 and I have landed it with rear risers. Just remember that the pressure will most likely be harder than toggles and it will stall much sooner. But as for the risk factor...use the damn reserve. Its pretty much guaranteed to work. Its very rare to find a reserve malfunction that was due to the actual reserve. Most reserve mals are from the skydiver's body position/procedure/situation/emergency/malfunction. The reserve is there for a reason and is inspected three times a year for a reason.

Cheers,
Travis

[btucker 0]

Sorry this is annoying me...


One of the best skills in skydiving is filtering. The great thing about our sport is that people are always ready to give you help and advice. Although always well intentioned, the quality of the advice ranges from downright wrong and dangerous up! After a while one learns to filter the advice, to sift through it and find out what works and is good for you. On the Internet (all you have to go by is someones profile) this is harder.


Students and novice jumpers usually jump student and novice equipment + have student and novice abilities. Maybe it's good for someone with similar experience to say “well I tried that and nearly died, it wasn't as easy as they told me!”

I would never discount any advice given to me by a student or a novice – after all their formal training and exam was recent. Mine was nearly five years ago. Aside from my faulty memory that's five years of improvement and extra knowledge gathered along the way.

Obviously one has to figure out what you'd you do in scenario x on your equipment y in conditions z. As they say, the dump questions are the one's you don't ask or discuss. I thank everyone for making me think about this question.




I've been told that landing on rear risers can range from “riding a bicycle on ice” to a walk in the park depending on the canopy, conditions and ability of the person.

Often people say that “using your reserve if your unsure is the least risky option.” So if your not sure you can land you canopy safely then using the reserve maybe the better option. You'd feel pretty stupid with a broken leg and a perfect reserve unused and still on your back!


Play around _up high_ with your canopy and do some personal research - obviously remembering to watch for other traffic!

I landed my team mates safire2 canopy (my first jump on it) with a stuck toogle in high winds - nice landing, no worries. In retrospect, I think the better (less risky) decision would have been to chop as it was my first jump on it!



blues