RSL

[firstime 0]

This post is not for advice but for opinions and I am
not waiting for the answer I want to hear because I
don't have an answer. The rsl is a wonderful device
as a "back up" just as an audible. I get such mixed
responses on the good and bad. I approached this sport with excitement and determination. This next statement is a quote " RSL no way, I want to be the one to pull my reserve". Another quote " thanks to the rsl it corrected my brain fart" It goes on and on
and I can see a really valid point with everyone I speak to re:pros and cons. I have made a decision
to keep my RSL but disconnect it after I have a good
canopy. As far as my 1st sentence " I don't have an
answer" that was for do away with it or not. I enjoy
these forums just as I do talking to ppl at the DZ.
Am I beating a dead horse with this post because if
it's the first I'll have kidnap the Anheuser-Busch plant.

[Jimbo 0]

Use the search function here on dz.com to read more than 1,000 posts on this very subject. Additionally, check out the Safety section, there's a few articles worth reading.

In the end you'll have a lot of information and still have to make the decision for youself.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[firstime 0]

1000 posts... DOH

[billvon 3,085]

>I have made a decision to keep my RSL but disconnect it after I
> have a good canopy.

How come?

[XWuffo 0]

I'm keen to see that response. There are a few
scenarios for keeping the RSL.
1. Canopy colision and subsequent low chop, RSL will probably save.
2. Canopy failure (albeit very unlikely) like an unseen tear growing larger, or riser/line/link break. Could result in another low chop.
3. Cut away cable slips out (after being partially extracted for whatever reason) - again highly unlikely but possible - just pray it's the side wich pulls the RSL that comes out. I guess this is a very healthy argument for disconnecting the RSL.

The best rule is, do what your instructor tells you to do. They have piled up years of knowledge, know the local equipment and conditions, and will always give you the best advise possible.

As we in Africa know - "If you're going to be dumb - you'd better be tough."
- Tonto

[tombuch 0]

Quote

The best rule is, do what your instructor tells you to do. They have piled up years of knowledge, know the local equipment and conditions, and will always give you the best advise possible.

As a student, that is generally true.

Once you are off student status and making your own way in the skydiving world you will need to make your own decisions. As you gain experience, change equipment, and change your jump profiles, your risk exposure and risk tolerance will change. As that happens an instructor will no longer be in a position to make decisions for you. In fact, given the issue at hand in this thread (RSL's), instructors have many differing opinions.

My suggestion is to follow your instructors advice as long as you are a student. As you gain experience seek other opinions and demand supporting facts. Evaluate the experience and training of the people offering those opinions. Make your own decisions, initially favoring your instructors positions. As time moves on and you gain confidence in others, include alternate opinions and thoughts. Reevaluate all your safety decisions at least annually. The decision to use or not use an RSL, for example, should be based at least in part on the kind of equipment you are using, the types of jumps you are making, your planned opening altitude, your total experience and currency, and your risk tolerance.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
S&TA
Senior Parachute Rigger
Commercial Pilot (IAMSEL,G)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[skymedic 0]

Quote

I have made a decision
to keep my RSL but disconnect it after I have a good
canopy.

I used to think this is a good thing...but after much discusion with many a person I had decided this isn't a very good idea and now leave mine connected.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

>I have made a decision to keep my RSL but disconnect it after I
> have a good canopy.

How come?

I know one person who is alive today because of an RSL and low altitude chop. He, for whatever reason, managed to dislodge the cutaway handle during a student jump and at some point during the canopy flight the main canopy just went away. This person was LOW when the main dislodged. Had there not been an RSL on this rig this person would have died, no doubt in mind in about that.

Getting rid of an RSL after you've got an open canopy makes no sense to me at all. It's under canopy where the RSL does the most good, provides the greatest advantage.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[skybytch 273]

Quote

The decision to use or not use an RSL, for example, should be based at least in part on the kind of equipment you are using, the types of jumps you are making, your planned opening altitude, your total experience and currency, and your risk tolerance.

Excellent comment. I agree 100%.

Haven't had a cutaway yet? Don't have a lot of jumps in your logbook? Don't stay real current? Don't fly camera or do CRW? An RSL may be the right choice for you. It is for me, for right now, for all of the above reasons. I may decide to remove it if/when any of those factors change.

Like any other piece of skydiving gear there are risks involved in having one. Know the risks and benefits and make your own decision.

[riddler 0]

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I have made a decision to keep my RSL but disconnect it after I have a good canopy.

Your decision is your own and I respect that. As long as you are not a student at a USPA dropzone, you can make whatever RSL choices you wish. Personally, I keep my RSL hooked up 99.9% of the time. I would disconnect it in a very few rare instances, and only if I had the time to do so.

I believe that the one person that died at WFFC 2003 would have been saved by an RSL. But that's my own opinion, and no one else's. The best guess we have is that he cut away from a canopy below 1,000 feet and never opened his reserve. An RSL most likely would have opened it for him.

Please read billvon's article on RSL myths if you haven't already.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

I have made a decision
to keep my RSL but disconnect it after I have a good
canopy.

IMHO, you have then chosen precisely the "worst of 2 worlds" scenario, and w/be acting directly in conflict with rational decision-tree reasoning as to the benefits vs. detriments of the RSL altogether!

Think about this... When is the time that the RSL becomes most pressingly and appropriately needed? (stipulating of course that you have already decided it has value, and is desirable)

Now, why would you disconnect it?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

Haven't had a cutaway yet? Don't have a lot of jumps in your logbook? Don't stay real current? Don't fly camera or do CRW? An RSL may be the right choice for you.

An RSL should NEVER be a replacement for staying current on EP's or EP practice/training, period, -EVER!

IMHO this is not a valid reasoning, or decision tree factor at all for choosing to jump with an RSL or not. The pro vs. con factors/considerations involved in having an RSL on your rig in fact are completely negated in total if you allow this to be your "mentality". There is NO SUBSTITUTE for proper training, consideration and currency, as it relates to EP's and EP practice/consideration period.

I know several jumpers who have gone literally thousands of jumps without a cut-away. Does that mean that they should jump necessarily with an RSL? Where does an RSL particularly affect (positively) either currency, or lack of EP's experience/practice?

I submit that lack of currency/knowledge & the mix of RSL potential detriment factors could even possibly be a negative, if you take this statement as a "given". Reliance upon any BACK UP device IMHO is a mistake, and a dangerous mentality to even consider, let alone accept, and accept as a "substitute" for instead keeping current on one's EP practice, considerations and training.

My added .02,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 3,085]

>An RSL should NEVER be a replacement for staying current on EP's or EP practice/training, period, -EVER!

Not everyone can stay current. Sometimes it's easy for me to forget, but some parts of the country experience this climactic phenomenon called winter. When I jumped in NY, it meant that every April we'd see uncurrent people jumping. Sometimes it's simply unavoidable.

>There is NO SUBSTITUTE for proper training, consideration and
>currency, as it relates to EP's and EP practice/consideration period.

No, but good judgement would tell a jumper to be conservative on his first jumps back. Perhaps it would be a good idea to jump their old Sabre 170 a few times before going back to their Crossfire 135, for example. Is that a substitute for currency? Sort of, but it can also help keep you alive until you get current again.

>I know several jumpers who have gone literally thousands of jumps
> without a cut-away. Does that mean that they should jump
> necessarily with an RSL? Where does an RSL particularly affect
> (positively) either currency, or lack of EP's experience/practice?

An RSL can mitigate the risk of poor EP's, equipment problems, and bad jugdement when it comes to cutaway altitudes.

>Reliance upon any BACK UP device IMHO is a mistake, and a
> dangerous mentality to even consider, let alone accept, and accept
> as a "substitute" for instead keeping current on one's EP practice,
> considerations and training.

I agree. However, not everyone can make a jump with a tiny canopy, no jumpsuit and goggles, and no altimeter on their first jump back after a long layoff. Does that mean they are gear dependent? Yes. Should they work towards being able to jump their tiny canopy again without relying on goggles, altimeter, cypres, RSL etc? Yes. But it's a mistake to try to do that all at once. Until they are ready to do it, they may use the safety gear as a crutch. Once they are ready to do it, then the safety gear goes back to doing what it _should_ be doing, which is being a usually-unnecessary backup for a skydiver's skills and good judgement.

[skybytch 273]

Quote

An RSL should NEVER be a replacement for staying current on EP's or EP practice/training, period, -EVER!

Not sure how you got the idea I don't practice my EP's because I have an RSL on my rig.... Anyone who's jumped with me knows I do so prior to every skydive.

I made 700+ jumps without an AAD and 800 without an RSL. I don't rely on either one. They are there in case I screw up - as even the best and most current jumpers have done in the past. I'm certainly not afraid to jump without either one.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

Not sure how you got the idea I don't practice my EP's because I have an RSL on my rig....

Not that you did yourself personally, Lisa. Rather, that the statement methinks could however be construed as such by some. I think we've all more fully clarified now, although I still do not understand how any jumper who DOES use and advocate an RSL (again not YOU specifically, Lisa) would also on the other hand for some reason find need to disconnect it every jump after opening.

In my total time here on these boards I have still, yet to hear a reasonable/rational explanation for that one.

Thanks for taking part in the repartee!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

Not everyone can stay current. Sometimes it's easy for me to forget, but some parts of the country experience this climactic phenomenon called winter. When I jumped in NY, it meant that every April we'd see uncurrent people jumping. Sometimes it's simply unavoidable.

Agreed. So in these instances Bill "back in the day", did you find yourself re-installing your RSL subsequent to periods of seasonal lay-off? If so, what were more specifically your decision factors / impetus that apparently swayed your thinking or position (even if only "temporarilly") regarding the usefulness of the RSL, assuming that you had otherwise previously decided NOT to use one?

Quote

Perhaps it would be a good idea to jump their old Sabre 170 a few times before going back to their Crossfire 135, for example. Is that a substitute for currency? Sort of, but it can also help keep you alive until you get current again.

This is good, reasonable and effective appropriate "thinking" ...and nice of you to put this in here. But Bill, it is also mixing apples with oranges. Your main is not a back-up safety device. Although it adds credence to, and evidences your personal overall wisdom Bill, as strictly applied to this topic, I don't find this analogy germane.

Quote

An RSL can mitigate the risk of poor EP's, equipment problems, and bad jugdement when it comes to cutaway altitudes.

And why should any of those instances/examples be considered "acceptable" exposure circumstances at all in the 1st place? Wouldn't one be overall better off in taking steps to ESCHEW these in the first place, rather than feel they are instead merely mitigating them by applying a "band-aid" RSL? This seems lazy and complacent to me. Even you have been one in the past Bill to preach that COMPLACENCY KILLS! ...Again, I submit that staying current in one's training and/or practice, even in the absence of abject "currency" is the safer approach than instead "loading up" on back-up equipment as a perceived appropriate substitute! -Do you disagree?

Quote

Until they are ready to do it, they may use the safety gear as a crutch.

If they feel they truly need that "crutch" in the 1st place, then I think they should reconsider doing the activity at all, in total. ...I don't think you meant to say that exactly as it sounded. Otherwise, in this regard, you and I vociferously disagree! But moreover, what I worry about here Bill, is that lowbie's are reading this. We have the opportunity to provide thinking examples for a "mindset" here. I don't think that you & I in reality diverge too greatly on our opinions on this subject. However, in any way influencing that mindset towards an RSL as being capable of being a SUBSTITUTE for EP drill/practice and capabilities currency, IMHO would be a mistake. Can you stipulate to that?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[firstime 0]

The more I read and ask questions, I have a change
of mind. I have seen two canopy collisions , the
one cutaway without the rsl the guy had alot of seperation prior to reserve pull. Maybe it's a personal
thing because I like staying away from groups from
exit to flare until I feel comfortable. Thanks for all
of your input as I will re-evaluate my decision.

[billvon 3,085]

>Agreed. So in these instances Bill "back in the day", did you find
> yourself re-installing your RSL subsequent to periods of seasonal
> lay-off?

The first rig I owned (a Swift) had no provisions for an RSL. The second rig I owned was a Racer; I used that one for a while, but it is of a different design than most other RSL's and has different failure modes, and I eventually stopped using it. The third rig I owned was a Reflex, and by the time I got that one I was in a place without winter.

>And why should any of those instances/examples be
> considered "acceptable" exposure circumstances at all in the 1st place?

Because not everyone is as good as everyone else. I have had stellar students who got everything, from body position to EP's, on the first shot. I've had a few that simply could not learn these things, and either never got to jump or were grounded after a few jumps. In between are most students. Some are fast learners and natural skydivers, some aren't. One guy worked his ass off, spent weeks in a tunnel, and even then was barely able to perform competently in the air. These people might well benefit from an RSL more than a 'natural.'

Also, as I mentioned before, even excellent jumpers can become uncurrent during winter.

>Even you have been one in the past Bill to preach that
> COMPLACENCY KILLS! ...Again, I submit that staying current in one's
> training and/or practice, even in the absence of abject "currency" is
> the safer approach than instead "loading up" on back-up equipment
>as a perceived appropriate substitute! -Do you disagree?

Not at all. I agree. Training, experience and good judgement are more important than backup devices.

>If they feel they truly need that "crutch" in the 1st place, then I think
> they should reconsider doing the activity at all, in total.

I disagree. There are many crutches that allow new jumpers to get to a point at which they don't need them. AFF-JM's, RSL's, AAD's, radios, dedicated spotters, paddles . . . all these things allow less-competent and experienced jumpers to skydive safely. I think it should be a goal to get over reliance on these things as quickly as possible, but there will always be that interim step where jumpers are weaning themselves from the backups.

>However, in any way influencing that mindset towards an RSL as
> being capable of being a SUBSTITUTE for EP drill/practice and
> capabilities currency, IMHO would be a mistake. Can you stipulate
> to that?

Of course. An RSL only improves your safety if you don't need it; if you are relying upon it to be able to jump, then you are, overall, a less safe skydiver. There are less safe skydivers out there; all the safety devices in the world won't make them into safe skydivers. At best, safety devices can help them survive and get to a point where they don't need them.

[Praetorian 1]

I think your mistaking the use of "crutches" with dependence on them. I for example am a newbie and wouldn't choose to jump without an altimeter I'm getting better at judging by sight, and would trust my eyes to pull if I felt I was too low reguardless of what the altimeter says, at this point I might also pull if my altimeter read lower then my eyes/mind. but even if I get to the point where I am perfect at this I would still choose to have an altimeter, If I need to cut and pull silver, RSL or not once I've pulled red I'm going for silver, if the RSL beats me to it great thats why I have it, because its a usefull backup not because I'm dependent on it. Same with a cypress I have it as a BACK UP should I be unable to pull my reserve, it gives me one more shot then I would have otherwise, would I trust it to do its job if I had any other choice, nope thats why I wouldnt remove my Reserve handle just because I have a cypress. your arguement is the same as saying a helmet is a crutch to riding a motorcycle, and wearing one is like saying I have a helmet so I can be stupid, unskilled, and unpraticed while riding a motorcycle as opposed to I'm good and trying to get better on a motorcycle but I wear a helmet because Shit happens.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[wmw999 2,556]

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I think your mistaking the use of "crutches" with dependence on them.

Dunno. I think he's getting closer to the "would you go on a jump with a Cypres that you wouldn't go on without it?" kind of thinking. And that is something worth considering.

If you consider it to be "dumbass insurance" (which mine is), then so be it. If it's a cloak of invincibility, well, it isn't, and it shouldn't be used instead of practicing and/or currency.

I have cut away, both 3-ring and R-2's (really old Capewell substitute). I appear to have pulled my reserve each time. But I'm getting an RSL ring on my riser to put it back on, because I'm capable of dumbassery, and I don't jump camera or do CRW.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Praetorian 1]

Quote

"would you go on a jump with a Cypres that you wouldn't go on without it?"

Huh, I wouldn't choose to jump without one, its there just in case I get knocked cold on exit or hit another diver in free fall etc.. I don't think a cypress is a cloak of invincibility. Just a piece of insurance I choose to have, and not one I trust to be fool proof just maybe one more shot then I have without it, if given the choice I'll take the car with the airbag, wear the helmet on the motorcycle etc, and the only time I would do without these kind of safety backups is if I had no choice, would I drive faster in the car with the airbag? NO so while I choose not to jump without a cypress no there is no jump that I would do without one that I would do with one. cypress or RSL just wouldnt be factors in these decisions (ok maybe RSL would but it would be the other way around if I try CRW I'll disconnect it but you get the idea)

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

Huh, I wouldn't choose to jump without one, its there just in case I get knocked cold on exit or hit another diver in free fall etc..

Quote

"would you go on a jump with a Cypres that you wouldn't go on without it?"

Uh-oh. Now he's REALLY trying to get me going here, isn't he?

I also hope that Ron isn't reading!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Praetorian 1]

I'm not trying to tick anyone off I just say what I think (and it can be taken with a grain of salt as I'm a total NOVICE) I just don't see the logic in passing up backups ... I also don't trust them thats why they are called backups. They are just logical extentions of reserves. I also know its important to know your own gear and if I end up wraped or landing in HIGH wind I know to disconnect my RSL before cutting away.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[piisfish 140]

Quote

Quote

I have made a decision
to keep my RSL but disconnect it after I have a good
canopy.

I used to think this is a good thing...but after much discusion with many a person I had decided this isn't a very good idea and now leave mine connected.

of what I learned, you should disconnect it if the winds appear to have turned real strong, or if you are going to land in water. Or may be also if you are entangled with another canopy and have to cutaway (unplanned CReW)

I might be wrong, if anybody has a comment, please do so.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 3,085]

>I'm not trying to tick anyone off I just say what I think (and it can be
>taken with a grain of salt as I'm a total NOVICE) I just don't see the
>logic in passing up backups ...

There is value in working towards a day where you can show you don't need them, though. Nothing wrong with having all those backups until then.

>I also don't trust them thats why they are called backups. They are
> just logical extentions of reserves.

And like reserves, can both help you and hurt you.

> I also know its important to know
> your own gear and if I end up wraped or landing in HIGH wind I
> know to disconnect my RSL before cutting away.

?? In high winds, disconnecting the RSL is a convenience only, not a safety issue.