KNOT-IN-TOW!!! WTF??? saftey day fun!!!

[skymedic 0]

Not sure if I should post this here, in the saftey and training, or in the incidents section. Moderators can move as they see fit. So here goes.

I have been very uncurrent over past few months. Actualy last time I had a chance to jump was almost 6 months ago. Although i practice my emergency procedures weekly at least in my head.
Mind you I had the knowledge to borrow Anne's Sabre 1 190 for my jump so I wouldn't jump back into my Stilleto that I was becoming so used to at the end of last summer. I figured I'd play it safe and upsize and square up for a couple of jumps.

I was doing a recurrency jump with one of our coaches at Archway...figured saftey day was a good day to do it. I was going to just make a nice easy hop n pop out of the C-182 as opposed to going to full altitude as I am a bit of a wuss when it comes to cold jumping. We got to 5 grand over the DZ. checked the spot...it was perfect...right over the DZ. Then I made a nice exit into the airstream....Ahhhhh...what a great feeling...well that's when it went kinda goofy.

I took about a 5-6 second delay still somewhat on the hill but picking up some good speed. I wave off and throw out.......and waited....and felt my self still accelerating. NOT FUN. Look over my shoulder to see my pilot chute flapping around at bridle stretch but also bobbing up and down. It was NOT inflated just a brief look I saw a big blob of nylot and bridle. I just knew I had cocked it and had checked it more than three times before putting it on my back. i felt my bridle slap my left side a couple of times. reach back to see if I could clear it. pulled once and it just pulled the PC closer to me.

Well...I went to silver. had a beautiful yellow dash-M 218 over my head right on heading. (thanks Jack). check my reserve it's flying good. now I look back and see my non inflated pilot chute back there main still in the container. I real it in and kinda stuff it in the top of my jumpsuit. concentrate on making smooth moves as I was paranoid the main would come out and I'd have two out situation. I got so paranoid about this whole thing that I kinda crash landed...not flaring my canopy all the way. all though I did a great PLF. no injuries really. just feel a little sore here and there.

Well....collect my self after i catch my breath. I take a look at my PC and it seems it did a overhand knot to it self at some point. It appears my Wings freefly handle might have been a culprit in this. it is only attached by one peice of what appears to be binding tape to the top of the PC. somehow when I pitched out it had looped it self and knotted it self. I had packed my PC the same way i have been doing it for almost 3 years now. the Brian Germain way...it has always worked. I dont see this as being the reason it knotted it self. I also know it did not inflate then knot off it was just never knotted. I just think the design of my wings handle is kinda crappy and was a major contributor to this absolute freak overhand knot that was put into my PC and bridle. I pulled the pin after it was on the ground...less pull force than even a normal pull for my packed main. I just dont think it was cause I upsized. her WELL loved main packed up into my 150 D-bag with out even so much of a grunt. just a really wierd thing...Wish I had pictures but one of the people out there untied it before I could. it was a total overhand knot.


So...what did I learn? That my practicing of emergency procedures all the time, even when I know I can't jump, is a good thing. I truly believe that making this secondary nature to me saved my life. I also really need to get an AAD(not that I ever would rely on it..but it'd be nice to have). I obviously handled the situation...but having a high speed mal like this at lower altitude was an eye opening experience. nothing worse than the feeling of NOT having the deceleration there.

oh...kept my handle and got my freebag back too. it was one HELL of a crazy recurrency jump!!!

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[op5e 0]

When I get back to skydiving I hope I do not have a recurrency jump like this. I think I might practice the Emergency drills a bit more often, even though im grounded.

Thanks for sharing. Well done on landing without a ride to the hospital.

[cbain 0]

Did I catch this part right? Did you stuff the main PC, after the reserve opened, into your jumpsuit to keep it from launching the main?

But what if the pin had come loose and the main opened, with the PC in your jumpsuit, wouldn't that have resulted in a possible horsehoe with the reserve out and increase chances of entangelent? Whereas with the PC not in your jumpsuit if it had opened you might have a had a better chance at a stable 2 out? It also seems that if the main did come open that having the PC in the jumpsuit would increase the chances of the main coming out of the d-bag, whereas if it opened without the PC in the jumpsuit, with the reserve already out you may have been going slow enough that the main wouldn't have extracted from the d-bag.

Just wondering what the consensus is, with a PC in tow do you stuff the PC somewhere to keep it out of the airstream or does that make things worse?

Christina

[skymedic 0]

My fear was if I left it out back the pc would pull the main on final. and yes your right I did stuff it in the top of my jumpsuit. but not tight in the least bit. just placed it there more than anything. I'm not saying what I did was right...it's just what I thought was best at the time. it was definately a high stress moment

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[meandean 0]

I wave off and throw out.......and waited....and felt my self still accelerating. NOT FUN. Look over my shoulder to see my pilot chute flapping around at bridle stretch but also bobbing up and down. Well...I went to silver.
So...what did I learn? That my practicing of emergency procedures all the time,
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What about cutting away before activating your reserve, if you have something out? Were those your normal ep's for this situation? Just wondering.

[PhreeZone 20]

Read the wingsuit fourm on this topic. It seems that the same exact thing has happened to a few of the wingsuit flyers due to the longer bridle and the weight from hackeys and other things. A few birdmen are moving towards internal handels or pack to the pvs pipe.

This is not the first time I've heard of this, I've never seen it before buy its been posted a few times and always reguarded as a freak accident. Most times its the bridle knotting around the PC preventing it from inflating.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[KrisFlyZ 0]

I was at SDC just after this had happened to someone on their First Wingsuit Flight. It is interesting that this can happen on regular jumps also.

Anyone know of this happening on a terminal jump?

Kris.

[skymedic 0]

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What about cutting away before activating your reserve, if you have something out? Were those your normal ep's for this situation? Just wondering.

Yes those are my normal EP's for a PC in tow. that is what I was taught. The sim says you can do eather. My thoughts are why waste time in a high speed malfunction with cutting away ontop of going for silver. If I get two out I can eather deal with that or cut it away then when I am now slowed down with nylon over my head.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[skymedic 0]

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This is not the first time I've heard of this, I've never seen it before buy its been posted a few times and always reguarded as a freak accident. Most times its the bridle knotting around the PC preventing it from inflating.

This was not the bridal knotting around the PC. This was the PC tyeing it self in a not. the bridal was not really even involved. It was more of the handle involved. That is what pulled through and knotted up the PC on it self.

Also one other thing. I have a very large PC. I dont know if it is standard on the wings. I didn't ask for it but they had sent a 32inch F111 PC. i personaly think it is too big. I also am now going to get rid of my freefly handle or figure out a way to sew it all the way down to my PC. I just am not comfortably with how it is now saftey wise.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[airtwardo 7]

I'm not familiar with Brian G's method you
mentioned...can you give a brief description?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Jimbo 0]

http://www.bigairsportz.com/art-pilotchute.php

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[skymedic 0]

That's the exact one Jimbo. Thanks. I've been packing it that way for the past couple hundred jumps and even more pack jobs without issue on my rig or on Anne's.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[larsrulz 0]

BG's Pilot Chute Packing Method

I was the coach for that jump. I originally thought pilot chute in tow due to an uncocked pilot chute, as I could only see something flapping behind him after pull. Big learning experience for me; I wasn't actively watching as much as I should have, was treating it more like a casual hop 'n' pop than a recurrency jump. Not much I could have done as I knew he looked good on climb out and exit, but I didn't watch him through getting a good canopy. If something serious had happened, I wouldn't have known what. I did get his freebag for him...those tie dye pop tops can't be cheap.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[airtwardo 7]

Thanks...

Brian has forgotten more than I'll ever know
on the subject...

But I would like to make one comment.

I've seen PC's packed that way on deployment,
and I can see how a knot might happen.
The bridle 'follows' the PC out and if the throw
isn't real aggressive the PC can go up into
the 'unwinding' bridle.

By S folding the bridle 'into' PC and folding
it the same way...it looks to come out more
'staged' for lack of a better term.

Also...I wonder if as stated, the weight of the
Hackey played any part...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skymedic 0]

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Also...I wonder if as stated, the weight of the
Hackey played any part...

Mine is more of a pud than a hackey. and it has a good inch of what appears to be type 2 or 3 tape. attaching it. it tends to dangle on the end of the PC. I have a feeling of anything this related to it. on top of it being subterminal...and me being a big fella moving lots of air out of the way did not help even with a strong throw that I definately did have. just voodoo air over vandalia.

Wierd thing is I had a great hard throw out too. not a weaker than normal throw out. it felt good coming out of the pocket and into the wind. nice strong throw.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[airtwardo 7]

just voodoo air over vandalia.

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Murphy Lurks!

What a great way to 'knock th dust off'!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skymedic 0]

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Murphy Lurks!

What a great way to 'knock th dust off'!

I couldn't of said it any better.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[Scrumpot 1]

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This was not the bridal knotting around the PC. This was the PC tyeing it self in a not. the bridal was not really even involved. It was more of the handle involved. That is what pulled through and knotted up the PC on it self.

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I had packed my PC the same way i have been doing it for almost 3 years now. the Brian Germain way...it has always worked.

I too, for nearly 7-800 jumps or so, have packed my PC in this fashion. On ONE jump however, upon return to the packing loft to repack for the next jump I noticed what appears to me, to be in retrospect sneakingly and STRIKINGLY similar if not identical to this!

Up until right this very moment, I had otherwise just assumed it occured sometime AFTER landing, during my gather-up and walk back to the DZ (coincidentally also an off-DZ landing for me too ...which also added to my thought I somehow just did this during the LONG walk back). Now though, after reading this, I dunno.

IIRC now too, when I got back & un-knotted it, the kill like also had still indicated "green" in the check "window", indicating that the PC had never been drawn in/collapsed, although I also distinctly recall it was "flat" on top of my main & neither inflated nor providing significant drag (that I can remember). I remember thinking this "odd", but where it did not cause me "incident" I also really never gave it any further thought. Again ...until JUST NOW!

So a couple questions, if you don't mind my asking...

- Do you recall if upon inspection your kill line also either indicated collapsed or it was still "cocked"?

- Was there ANY sort of delay in your extracting the PC between extracting and throwing it?

Nice, level headed reactions Marcus (agree or disagree after-the-fact and on the ground as to the propriety/recommendability of stuffing the trailing PC into your jumpsuit nothwithstanding) to as you note, and I'm sure: quite a both high-stress, and high-speed mal! ...Especially considering this was a "shake off the cobb-webs" entirely "cold" (no pun intended ) recurrency jump for you.

Also, just out of curiosity, can you tell us at what alt you went straight to, and pulled your silver, and at what alt you found yourself under your fully inflated reserve?

I'm wondering if you can also post up for us your recollections as to your total altitude awareness, especially as it may relate to # of tries for your main vs. your decision & hard-deck altitudes. I think THOSE lessons for others may be of some real VALUE too!

Thank you for posting up your experience!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[skymedic 0]

Hiya Grant,

ok couple of answers for ya.

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Do you recall if upon inspection your kill line also either indicated collapsed or it was still "cocked"?

Still green right at this very moment no less....

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- Was there ANY sort of delay in your extracting the PC between extracting and throwing it?

I have ran my head back through this very situation...but there just wasn't any. I had a nice smooth reach back...with a nice smooth forcefull toss into the airstream. No delays at all that I can recall. it was all so smooth. well...till i felt the speed pick up...then it wasn't so smooth.

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Also, just out of curiosity, can you tell us at what alt you went straight to, and pulled your silver, and at what alt you found yourself under your fully inflated reserve?

Went to silver at about 3500 feet and was under a full inflated reserve and had controlability check done on it by 3000.

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I'm wondering if you can also post up for us your recollections as to your total altitude awareness, especially as it may relate to # of tries for your main vs. your decision & hard-deck altitudes. I think THOSE lessons for others may be of some real VALUE too!

I knew I had plenty of time considering I was doing a hop n pop out of a cessna from 5000. But once I saw that my second attempt at pulling the pin was doing nothing but pulling the PC towards me to the point it would drop and hit my side i pulled silver. my decision altitude is and always has been 2000. I was not going to wrangle with this dangly thing behind me to the point it horshoed around me or worse. i figured get the nylon over me...slow me down...then figure it out from there. I think i did it ok. some things I might do different. like the whole landing thing. I spaced out on the landing...but I was also thinking I am over soft territory and was just wanting to get down now. after going through all that crap i just wanted down. do you have any idea how SLOW my Dash-M 218 feels compared to my usual stiletto 150??? damn it's a tank. but that's why I have it there.

hope this helps clear some more things up for people. this was truly a learning experience. i am going to send wings some pics of the PC tied in a knot in the way I found it. also of the length of the attachemtn from FF handle to the PC. also...my PC is actualy 34". it's F'ing huge. I ordered my container for a 149Xfire and Dash-m 218 and that's the PC they gave me. so I dont know.


*edit* couple of pictures of the attachment point. and also how the knotted PC looked when I got a good look at it after I landed. there was no bridal involvment at all. all PC. I am wondering if I had a smaller PC if this would of been a possibility.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[hookitt 1]

Thanks for posting the pictures. That's very clearly a safety issue.

With all the data available about deployment systems, I'm surprised that design is out on the market. From what I've seen in the past, Henry is pretty good about making changes if the need arises so I suspect that it will be fairly soon.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Scrumpot 1]

I'm still WONDERING/thinking this through if there still MIGHT be any possibility at all that the BG PC packing method just might have had anything to do with this. ...Think this through for a moment, which is what your post has brought me some pause here now to do.

"Normal" PC packing method 1st folds over the material, keeping the apex of the kill line attachment right at the bottom of the handle (or attatchment extension in your case).

"BG Method" 1st SEPARATES the mesh apex, and extends the kill-line (which would otherwise "normally" be "slack", but compressed all at the top of the PC) within the PC, from handle (hackey, or bridal extension) base to the apex, then fold the handle one time back down upon it.

I'm just wondering if perhaps my situation some time ago was again identical to yours (which it does seem to me that it IS), but I was just lucky enough that my PC seemed to still generate enough drag to extract the bag & deploy? My PC is 24" Zero-P.

I can picture this. If the handle (or hackey) stayed UNDER the PC as it hit the windstream and somehow went between the apex and the "EXTENDED" kill-line, this just might occur BECAUSE of this, -No?

That's what I'm beginning to wonder.

Does my description make sense/can you "see" it? Our 2 nearly identical happenstances, including PC packing method to me, seems almost TOO "coincidental" to entirely dismiss out of hand. The only other DIFFERENCE I can think of is that in my instance, I do think that there was a hesitation between my PC extraction and actual toss (hackey binding loop caught BRIEFLY on a wee bit of excess thumb material on my glove).

Very, very strange.

-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[skymedic 0]

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f the handle (or hackey) stayed UNDER the PC as it hit the windstream and somehow went between the apex and the "EXTENDED" kill-line, this just might occur BECAUSE of this, -No?

I agree. I think part of the problem is that I have such a large PC for who knows what reason other than my ignorance in not asking for a smaller ZP. and also the fact that the kill line is NOT killed yet so it is extended...then you have the dangly handle out there a good 2" from the apex of the PC and then include the slow speed subterminal nature of the jump...my large size pushing alot of air out of the way...and here we are.

Thing is I love flying my canopy...so i do alot of hop n pops. most of the time alot lower than this particular jump. Thank god it was just a tad higher. good stuff for sure.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[skymedic 0]

I sent Sunrise an Email to get there thoughts. they've always been good to me in the past and i am sure always will. I'll wait to see what henri thinks.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[skymedic 0]

still havn't heard anything from wings about what they think. kinda odd. hopefully they wont ignore this as I just read a very similar incident to this killed a skydiver in tunisia. scary....very scary.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....