Exit order

[Superman32 0]

I was just looking through the SIM and just can't find it.
What is the general load/ exit order? ie big ways first out, tandems last. What's the order in between?

Here are a few jumpers on my fictious load: solo belly flyers, 2 way bally flyes, free flyers solo and 2+, tracking jumpers, tandems, wingsuit ...

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[masher 1]

Generally speaking... (from what I can remember)

Flat flyers big groups -> small groups
Free flyers big groups -> small groups
AFF
Tandems
wingsuit
CReW


.

Do a search, lots of discussion about this on these fora.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[bob.dino 1]

More than you ever wanted to know on exit separation.

[billvon 3,107]

The way we do it at Perris:

Hop and pops out first (of course) at low alt

Often there is a 10.5 pass for 4-way teams

CRW jumpers get a separate pass away from the main area.

Once at altitude:
1. Speed skydivers
2. Boarders
3. RW large to small
4. Freefly large to small
5. High pullers/solos
6 AFF
7. Tandem
8. Wingsuit

[tdog 0]

Quote

Once at altitude:
1. Speed skydivers
2. Boarders
3. RW large to small
4. Freefly large to small
5. High pullers/solos
6 AFF
7. Tandem
8. Wingsuit

5. High Pullers/solos... Solo what? I have seen solos often be part of the "small" in 3 and 4.

1. Speed Skydivers... Why are they first? Define speed skydivers... Are you talking the guys who do speed formation building, or the guys who are trying to get maximum fall rate MPH???

[shunkka 0]

and trackers?

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"jump, have fun, pull"

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Flat flyers big groups -> small groups
Free flyers big groups -> small groups
AFF
Tandems
wingsuit
CReW

Good general guideline above. This 'fall rate based' thumbrule (slow to fast - RW before FF) is based on uppers being faster than lowers and both in the generally same direction. Kallend's model really speaks to it well - also, the guys at Omniskore have put his model into a graphical output that really shows it even better.

Big to small within subgroups groups is a goofy standard but most do it anyway. I like a small way to go out right on the green light so that the climb out of the next big group can give separation (so I'd also prefer to alternate small and big groups - don't like back to back big groups if I can help it).

1 - I don't agree with this, but sometimes you should consider who's flying the faster canopies to consider congestion on final. But that's no excuse for the better canopy pilots doing the right thing to avoid the 'slowbies'. If they can't handle it, maybe that canopy is too fast for them. Conversely, if you're first down, GET DOWN, don't piss around or it'll get crowded just when you don't want it to be.

All that said, there is always assholes that think they should be out either first or directly over the top just because of the little speck they fly. Sometimes they are right, most of the time, though, they're just selfish. I don't like giving precedence based on canopy performance, It's a bad habit. Exit order is about avoiding freefall collisions, not canopy congestion.

(Another big rule here - just because someone is in a particular freefall discipline does NOT mean you assume they are flying hot canopies. That's the biggest joke I've seen here. Freeflying does not equal high performance canopies, neither does competition 4-way. Real hard core swoopers seem to exit early or open high because they PLAN ahead to avoid traffic. At least the smart ones.)

2 - Winds don't always go in the same direction in different layers nor are uppers always faster than ground winds. The best way to manage exit order is have someone who understands formation drift lay out the plan based on the winds that day and not let the "weekend experts" argue with them.

Most DZs have thumb rules, if you see people stacking up, then the DZ is screwing it up. Most DZs seems to know what's going on though. Follow the rules.

Edit: Do a search on both exit order and delays between groups on exit and you'll see a lot of good advice on these forums. And also a lot of idiotic crap - like mine above

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnMitchell 16]

After you get the perfect lineup in the aircraft, remember to use enough separation between each group, five seconds between solos and up to ten seconds or more following a large group. That time increases when the winds aloft are strong. Ask an instructor at your DZ.

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

After you get the perfect lineup in the aircraft, remember to use enough separation between each group, five seconds between solos and up to ten seconds or more following a large group. That time increases when the winds aloft are strong. Ask an instructor at your DZ.

Here's a spreadsheet from a thread about a year ago, on recommended separation between groups based on group size. Billvon had a similar one somewhere relating separation distance to time to wait based on winds aloft and aircraft airspeed. I can't remember if we ever merged them, but doing so would be a good idea.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gemini 0]

Does this change work?

Blue skies,

Jim

[kallend 2,146]

Yes, unless the winds at opening altitude are in a different direction to the uppers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gemini 0]

Ok so the formula is a general "rule of thumb" calculation since the time is derived from the feet of separation. For more precise calcs we need your simulation model.

Blue skies,

Jim

[billvon 3,107]

>5. High Pullers/solos... Solo what? I have seen solos often be part
>of the "small" in 3 and 4.

Solo as in recent grad who is pulling high.

>1. Speed Skydivers... Why are they first? Define speed skydivers...

A guy who is attempting to fall at 300+mph. We put them out first at Perris because right now it's just one guy, and he wears about 75lbs of weight, and he jumps a sub-80 sq ft canopy. He's often landing as the second group opens.

If we had a wide variety of speed skydivers it would likely make more sense to give them their own pass.

>and trackers?

Depends on the tracking group. Both wingsuits and trackers are somewhat unique in that _they_, not the aircraft, determine their opening position. Thus given a reasonably skilled tracker/wingsuiter their exit order does not matter. Note the Rantoul standard where wingsuits are out first.

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

Ok so the formula is a general "rule of thumb" calculation since the time is derived from the feet of separation. For more precise calcs we need your simulation model.

Billvon's spreadsheet is here

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Danne 0]

Why do you put high pullers/solos and AFF after freeflyers? My logic would put them before freeflyers because they fall slower and drift more. You are never sure what altitude they pull at anyway and AFF-instructers pull at normal altitude dont they?

Am I missing something?

/Dan

[billvon 3,107]

> Why do you put high pullers/solos and AFF after freeflyers?

Primarily logistical. High pullers on larger canopies can make it back from long upwind spots more easily. Similar to the reasoning for tandems almost last.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Why do you put high pullers/solos and AFF after freeflyers?

This might be the only legit instance (IMO) in which we should accommodate the slower descending canopies rather than freefall drift considerations. Also, though we shouldn't count on vertical separation for fun jumpers, AFF and Tandem are probably the most likely not to screw that aspect up. Canopy congestion for regular jumpers is a nuisance, but it's a VERY BIG DEAL for students and a tandems.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[gemini 0]

Billvon's spreadsheet is here

Now it makes sense. Couldn't figure out how the winds impacted the calcs in the abbreviated version.

Thanks.

Blue skies,

Jim

[78RATS 0]

can you define high puller?

3.5, 4, 4.5 ??

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[johnny1488 1]

Ususally depends on the DZ. I consider anyone pulling over 5 a high puller.
Then again people have looked at me and said I pull high cause I like to pull by 4k.

I can still usually beat them down though!

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I can still usually beat them down though!

Do they know it's a race? (and 4k is very high, such that exit order and freefall drift for you should be a very important thing.)

Edit: I suspect you pull high in order to hold brakes and wait for the landing area to clear.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[johnny1488 1]

I pull higher cause my canopy goes faster/to deal with malfunction/I love canopy flight.

I absolutely hold Horizontal seperation above vertical. Vertical means nothing if there is horizontal.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[rehmwa 2]

Pretty clear. I thought one way or the other it was a swooping thing (or at least a small canopy thing). Glad to see people thinking.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants