AggieDave 6 #26 March 9, 2004 QuoteSo, when would YOU disconnect the RSL? 5,000, 4,000, 3,000,2,000, 500 feet? On my sport rig? Never, don't have one. As a TM? After I have everything done and we're flying the canopy, so that's usually about 2.5k-3k. By this point I know if there's traffic, if there is traffic, its usually other tandems, so its known good, we're all flying basically the exact same pattern and doing the exact same thing, AND working very hard to stay out of each others way, etc. Eitherway, even with the RSL, do you know how long it takes a frigg'n tandem reserve to deploy? Much below 1.5k, without a skyhook or terminal velocity, you're mostly hosed. So it doesn't matter anyways. As recommended by RWS and my course director, I disconnect the RSL every time, in case the winds have changed and I don't know. If you want, you can tell me to go against the manufacture's recommendations and my course director's recommendations, that's cool. QuoteThe one really good thing about an RSL is a fast deployment of the reserve Wrong, it doesn't give you a fast deployment of the reserve, it can give you a faster container opening speed. Only a Skyhook can give you a faster reserve deployment. Oh, .2 seconds, maybe that's a bit fast, maybe it was .5 seconds. Eitherway, it takes less then 1 second to pop, since its up and presenting its self for me. Also, you must remember, since its a tandem, I touch the crystal ball (which is attatched to the RSL) atleast twice before exit and once in freefall during my handle touches, so I know exactly where it is.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #27 March 9, 2004 QuoteEitherway, even with the RSL, do you know how long it takes a frigg'n tandem reserve to deploy? Much below 1.5k, without a skyhook or terminal velocity, you're mostly hosed. So it doesn't matter anyways. Really? Got any proof of that? Or you just quessing? QuoteWrong, it doesn't give you a fast deployment of the reserve, it can give you a faster container opening speed. Only a Skyhook can give you a faster reserve deployment. Ya gotta open the container to open the reserve...So if the container opens faster after a cutaway than pulling the silver...Guess what? You get a faster reserve opening. Im not going to tell you how to do a tandem...Im not an examiner. It is foolish to waste the potential life saving benefits of an RSL to save 40 bucks."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #28 March 9, 2004 QuoteReally? Got any proof of that? Or you just quessing? Remembering back to my TM course, I believe it was stated that a typical reserve deployment after deploying a main can take up to 800-900ft. So, much below 1.5k is cutting it close. With a Skyhook, of course that number is crazy short, like 100ft or something. QuoteIt is foolish to waste the potential life saving benefits of an RSL to save 40 bucks. I think its foolish to potentially cause a dragged tandem pair due to an RSL fired reserve. Sure, unlikely, so are canopy collisions while doing tandems.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #29 March 9, 2004 QuoteYou're lucky or you're not telling the truth. Apparently I'm more lucky than you, but I assure you that I'm telling the truth and resent the fact that you suggest I am not. I've never seen anyone scraped up from being dragged across the tarmac - I did see someone scraped up because he made a low turn INTO the tarmac, but that had nothing to do with being dragged by the wind. Dave, because your experiences have been different than mine and Ron's doesn't make us liars (as you have suggested in your replies to both of us), it just makes us different. Different training maybe? Who knows. But liars, no way. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #30 March 9, 2004 I was being sarcastic by saying you're not telling the truth, I've had conversations with the two of you on here enough times to know that you're both truthful. Sorry I didn't make it more obvious that I was being sarcastic. As for the rest of the post, I would still like to know what you would have done.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelem 0 #31 March 9, 2004 QuoteI'm not familiar with your DZ, but one thing you may want to talk over with an instructor is whether you would have been better off doing a brief downwind run to get to a better landing area. Another option in strong winds, which you can do closer to the ground, is just to go into mid-to-deep brakes. The wind will blow you backwards, but at a slower speed and with no need to turn. I did this last weekend when I was at about 200' and realised I was running the risk of colliding with a fence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #32 March 9, 2004 QuoteRemembering back to my TM course, I believe it was stated that a typical reserve deployment after deploying a main can take up to 800-900ft. So, much below 1.5k is cutting it close It would be closer without the RSL than with it. QuoteI think its foolish to potentially cause a dragged tandem pair due to an RSL fired reserve. Sure, unlikely, so are canopy collisions while doing tandems. The chances of a reserve opeing on the ground is VERY small. If fact anyone know know of a pulled reserve on the ground inflating and starting to drag a guy? Anyone...EVER? I have never heard of it...Now that does not mean it has never happened. So I ask again....anyone?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #33 March 9, 2004 QuoteI have never heard of it...Now that does not mean it has never happened. So I ask again....anyone? Like I said in one of my earlier posts, the only reason why a guy on my DZ reserve didn't inflate, is because some folks tackled it as the freebag was about to come off. That was close.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #34 March 9, 2004 QuoteLike I said in one of my earlier posts, the only reason why a guy on my DZ reserve didn't inflate, is because some folks tackled it as the freebag was about to come off. That was close. The freebag did not come off? So how do you know it would? Im waiting for someone to tell me they had seen a reserve deploy and drag someone... You have not seen that then? I'll wait till someone tells me it HAS happened, not that they THINK it would have happened, or it COULD happen. The only time I have seen one open was in a movie...Terminal Velocity....And in Dropzone it did take that kid off his feet, but it did not open. So anyone SEEN a reserve get pulled and it inflate on the ground and start pulling a guy?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #35 March 9, 2004 QuoteThe freebag did not come off? So how do you know it would? In the same respect, though, how do we know it wouldn't? That's why folks tackled the damn thing.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #36 March 9, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The freebag did not come off? So how do you know it would? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the same respect, though, how do we know it wouldn't? That's why folks tackled the damn thing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well with all the people on here....SOMEONE has to have seen this happen ONCE right? So I will wait till they tell me it has happened. Almost/might have is not the same thing as HAS. Anyone? Like I said the chances of it happening are SMALL and the risk of undoing the RSL is IMO not worth it....Worse case it pulls the pin...That does not equal an open canopy... to quote you: QuoteRemembering back to my TM course, I believe it was stated that a typical reserve deployment after deploying a main can take up to 800-900ft. So, much below 1.5k is cutting it close. So you don't think the RSL will open the Reserve in 900-1500 feet, but a good strong wind will? That makes no sense. And to answer this. QuoteI think its foolish to potentially cause a dragged tandem pair due to an RSL fired reserve. Sure, unlikely, so are canopy collisions while doing tandems. I have seen collisions with tandems...I have a buddy that DID collide with a tandem, I have had people cut me off while I was doing tandems. So I know of TWO collisions with a tandem and not ONE reserve opening up and dragging a guy."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #37 March 9, 2004 QuoteSo you don't think the RSL will open the Reserve in 900-1500 feet, but a good strong wind will? That is a very good point. If 120mph wind takes 1000ft to open it, how would 40mph wind (I'm hoping you're not jumping in more than 40!) open it up on the spot? Even if the freebag was pulled off I somehow doubt the canopy would inflate. Maybe next time you're due for a repack, you can wait for a really windy day, tie your rig to a post in a field, and pull the ripcord. See if the winds are even strong enough to pull the bag out of the container...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #38 March 9, 2004 Ron, I don't think anyone is reading this thread but you, me and AggieDave, and none of the three of us have seen this, obviously. But I would wait until I was lower than 2000 feet to disconnect my RSL, assuming there was no traffic around. But then again, I'm jumping a tunaboat, so I have lots of time left, even from 500 feet. But I have not yet disconnected my RSL, just so you know, except on the ground, 5 times or so. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #39 March 9, 2004 QuoteSo you don't think the RSL will open the Reserve in 900-1500 feet, but a good strong wind will? That makes no sense. I said 800-900 ft. Anyways, with a tandem pair, for potentially uninjured survival, it would take a fully opened reserve, correct? Remember, tandem reserves were designed to be survivalable if deployed from tandem terminal, by the book that 170-180mph, in real life that can be 200+mph. Thus they are designed to take longer to open then a "normal" sport reserve. To get dragged, how much reserve would have to be out? In 30+mph winds with a student still connected? My thought is not much.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #40 March 9, 2004 QuoteBut I would wait until I was lower than 2000 feet to disconnect my RSL, assuming there was no traffic around. But then again, I'm jumping a tunaboat, so I have lots of time left, even from 500 feet. I would NOT disconnect it if I jumped one...The ONLY reason I like RSL's are the fact that if you have to cut away low it will start the opening faster than most can pull handles. It is the best reason to have one....To disconect it when you are low is taking the best benefit that it can provide away. QuoteBut I have not yet disconnected my RSL, just so you know, except on the ground, 5 times or so. If you choose to jump one. (Another thread) I would never disconect it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #41 March 9, 2004 I do choose to jump one, b/c a certain little birdy gave me some good advice . . . jump one until you've had a cutaway or two, then decide. And my instructor just had me practice, as part of my A license training, for landing in water or on buildings. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #42 March 9, 2004 QuoteI said 800-900 ft. OK so lets recap. You think a Tandem Reserve will not open from a cutaway from 800-900 feet with an RSL, but you think it WILL open and drag a tandem pair in a good strong ground wind? QuoteAnyways, with a tandem pair, for potentially uninjured survival, it would take a fully opened reserve, correct? Who cares about uninjured if the option is death? Something is better than nothing QuoteDate 9/4/1996 Vaerloese, Denmark Description: This jump was captured on video and observed by the camerman. After a normal exit the Tandem Master was observed to be having trouble with Drouge deployment, and was "working" at it with his right hand. At 1500m, the reserve is deployed, but the left side of the canopy did not inflate. The slider was only 1-2 meters below the canopy. The reserve starts into a left-hand spin, and the TM tries to control it. They spin into a 7m tree, and are found later on the ground. The TM did not survive. The passenger did, though with a punctured lung, broken leg, etc. Lessons:Clearly, further information is needed before this can be properly evaluated. Passenger survived. QuoteDate 8/8/1998 Kapowsin, WA Description: While video indicated a good main canopy and deployment, the tandem pair was later observed to be under a malfunctioning reserve canopy. No one saw the cutaway from the main, which was far above the tandem pair. The apparent horseshoe malfunction got worse as the pair decended. The instructor did not survive the landing. According to the student, the instructor and student struggled to get a line (or lines) untangled from the student's legs all the way until impact. It is likely the student inadvertently pulled the cutaway while the instructor was loosening the harness straps at the hips. Main, but Student survived. QuoteDate 8/9/1998 Kapowsin, WA Description: After a normal tandem skydive, at about 300-400 feet, one side of the canopy collapsed (perhaps due to thermals off of the runway), causing the tandem pair to spiral into the ground. The student died immediately, and the instructor was taken to hospital by helicopter. Main, but Instructor survived. QuoteRemember, tandem reserves were designed to be survivalable if deployed from tandem terminal, by the book that 170-180mph, in real life that can be 200+mph. Thus they are designed to take longer to open then a "normal" sport reserve. And "something" out is better than"nothing". Quote To get dragged, how much reserve would have to be out? In 30+mph winds with a student still connected? My thought is not much Agian I ask if ANYONE has EVER seen this? I would bet they have not. I have seen guys cut away with RSL's and it open the container...but never have I seen it open and start pulling a guy. Not going to bother staying in this thread...Unless you can SHOW me where a reserve has been pulled on the ground and it opened and started dragging a guy. You would be much more logical if you just said "I don't want to pay 40 bucks for a repack." And I still say 40 bucks is not much for the added benefit of having an RSL when you are low."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #43 March 9, 2004 QuoteI do choose to jump one, b/c a certain little birdy gave me some good advice . . . jump one until you've had a cutaway or two, then decide I think the "birdy" said ONE cutaway were you pulled both handles. Thats kind of the way that little birdy thinks."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #44 March 9, 2004 QuoteYou think a Tandem Reserve will not open from a cutaway from 800-900 feet with an RSL, but you think it WILL open and drag a tandem pair in a good strong ground wind? Twisting what I said, and you know it. Anyways, this thread is now going no where. You refuse to listen to what I'm saying, to atleast look at the other side of the arguement, so I'm just going to leave it. We'll just have to disagree on this one. Someday we'll finally meet, I'll buy you a beer and we can chat about it then.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #45 March 9, 2004 QuoteAnother option in strong winds, which you can do closer to the ground, is just to go into mid-to-deep brakes. The wind will blow you backwards, but at a slower speed and with no need to turn. This is dangerous and foolish advice, and should not be heeded by anybody who does not fully understand what it is they would be potentially doing by executing this! QuoteThe wind will blow you backwards, but at a slower speed... Huh? A slower speed than what? You need to qualify your statements. I'm not sure what it is exactly your are trying to say, but again: This is dangerous and foolish advice, and should not be heeded by anybody who does not fully understand what it is they would be potentially doing by executing this! -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #46 March 9, 2004 Just out of curiosity-- what would we "potentially be doing by executing this" (no tone present, I swear)? Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfrese 0 #47 March 9, 2004 Well (and no tone present here either, I swear), for one thing, if it's windy enough to make you fly backwards, going into partial or deep brakes makes your canopy more susceptible to the turbulence that is present as well. Not to mention that if you're already moving backwards, speeding up that backwards movement is probably not a good idea unless you're really, really good, and really, really desperate. edited to add: in thelem's original post, they said that applying brakes would "slow down" the backwards movement...applying partial or deep brakes gives you a slower descent rate, and based on years-old experiences, will actually result in greater backwards movement relative to the ground. All in all, gotta agree with Kelly...that shit's scary. Doctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #48 March 9, 2004 QuoteI don't think anyone is reading this thread but you, me and AggieDave, and none of the three of us have seen this, obviously. There's others of us in here reading Kel. We've just thus far been sitting on the sidelines kinda marveling! QuoteBut I would wait until I was lower than 2000 feet to disconnect my RSL, assuming there was no traffic around. But then again, I'm jumping a tunaboat, so I have lots of time left, even from 500 feet. At your experience level Kelly, once you have already made the decision to jump with an RSL, as you clearly have, IMHO there is absolutely no reason short of having a 2-out situation where you may have to chop, where IN FLIGHT you should be disconnecting your RSL! Think about it. It is precisely that area BELOW 2,000 feet that you state, that the RSL actually becomes MORE IMPORTANT/EFFECTIVELY APPLICABLE! Again, assuming you have already decided you want and already have one at all. Relative to ever witnessing a tandem having its reserve inflate on the ground after a high winds cut-away? No, I've never seen that. Never seen it ACTUALLY HAPPEN (all the way to deployment/inflation) on a sport rig for that matter either. Although I have seen one unstow several lines as the bag tumbled and appeared to approach the point of line stretch. Winds were close to 40MPH in this instance and although it could be argued that at some point it "may have" ...(I can see how one think it may have looked that way, as we all watching as well viscerally thought it would too), but I can aslo add that in fact in this case no-one was able to "tackle it" either, and yet it did NOT extract from the freebag. I have 9 yrs in the sport now, FWIW. Maybe someone should ask Bill Booth or Morrisey what they think/their observations on this are?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #49 March 9, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You think a Tandem Reserve will not open from a cutaway from 800-900 feet with an RSL, but you think it WILL open and drag a tandem pair in a good strong ground wind? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Twisting what I said, and you know it. No....Lets look at these quotes. You said: Quote3. You're not a TM. If you were, then you would probably have atleast 1 ground chop. Catchers can't always get to you if the winds change and catch you off guard and you can't always get the student unhooked quick enough to control the canopy after landing. I said: QuoteIm a TM and I have NEVER had a ground chop. Cutting away is an option. Especially for a tandem. However, I would not bother to disconnect the RSL...I think it is more dangerous to play with your RSL instead of flying your canopy, and looking for traffic. 40-50 bucks is not a big deal compared to being dead/hurt. Then you said: QuoteIt takes less time to disconnect an RSL (ever wonder why they have those little yellow tabs on the pull rings) then it takes to collapse a slider, or as a TM, to do everything else you have to do to get your student comfy, etc. If taking .2 seconds to disconnect an RSL in windy conditions causes you to have a canopy collision at 2k, then either you don't know how to track away from groups, or theres really nothing that could have been done to prevent it. And I called BS on the 0.2 seconds. Which you agreed was a BS amount of time. Then I mentioned that an RSL is best used when low...Thats what its good at. I also said: QuoteAnd its stupid to disconnect the damn thing if you are jumping it anyway...The one really good thing about an RSL is a fast deployment of the reserve...Like when you are low...So why turn it off when you might need it? Then you said: QuoteEitherway, even with the RSL, do you know how long it takes a frigg'n tandem reserve to deploy? Much below 1.5k, without a skyhook or terminal velocity, you're mostly hosed. So it doesn't matter anyways. Which I took to be that you didn't think a Tandem reserve would open in time....But I found it funny you thought that a strong wind could open it....I have never been jumping in 40 mile an hour winds...And you will have that in a little over one second from a cutaway. You replied with QuoteRemembering back to my TM course, I believe it was stated that a typical reserve deployment after deploying a main can take up to 800-900ft. So, much below 1.5k is cutting it close. With a Skyhook, of course that number is crazy short, like 100ft or something. Still 900 feet MIGHT be enough time to save your life with an RSL....But you think it should be disconnected. So you eliminate the benefit of it. Then you said: QuoteI think its foolish to potentially cause a dragged tandem pair due to an RSL fired reserve. Sure, unlikely, so are canopy collisions while doing tandems. Now which is worse? Getting drug while under the reserve canopy...Or impacting at terminal with the reserve in the bag? I vote to get drug under canopy in the small chance that the reserve would inflate. Since no one has said they have EVER seen it, but there are pages of impacts before the reserve can open. I just don't get it....you think its safer to disconnect the RSL as you get low (When it works best). For fear of getting drug by a reserve that it *might* (But NO ONE has ever seen) deploy and cause you to get drug in high winds. Just the level of risk between the two is enough to keep the RSL on...On a low cut away it might save you from impact...And the worse it could do on the ground if it opens is scrape you up and damage gear. And like I said there are PAGES of people not getting a reserve out in time...And I have never heard of ONE case where a reserve inflated on the ground and drug some one. I really just don't get your thinking. Trading a way to reduce a known risk that will kill you, for a risk no one has ever heard of happening that will just damage gear and scrape you up some if it ever did happen. that does not make sense to me"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfrese 0 #50 March 9, 2004 Man, I've been trying to stay out of this, but I just have to say this: Ron, I think your argument is very valid. However, it needs to be taken up with at least RWS and Eclipse rather than AggieDave. I have Vector II and Eclipse ratings, and both the owner's manuals contain the following in the description of equipment in the "Harness and Container" section: B. Reserve Static-line Lanyard (RSL): RSL can be released prior to landing in the event of high ground winds. This sounds like a valid discussion topic for instructors on Safety Day, and it probably needs to be addressed to the manufacturers and examiners.Doctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
