karenmeal 0 #1 April 20, 2005 So I am selling a smallish elliptical canopy and I am finding myself interrogating several of the people who are interested. I want to be a responsible seller, but I don't necessarily want to be a wingloading-nazi, so what is appropriate? When you all sell gear, what sort of questions do you ask the buyer to make sure they can handle the canopy and wingloading? Would you go so far as to call their DZ and ask the DZO (or some other responsible person) if they thought it was an OK choice for that particular person? Have you ever told someone (after questioning) that you would not sell them the canopy? Now discuss amongst yourselves. -karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 April 20, 2005 QuoteHave you ever told someone (after questioning) that you would not sell them the canopy? Yes. Both private sale and as a dealer.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #3 April 20, 2005 Do you mind sharing the circumstances, like jump numbers and canopy size/wingloading? Trying to figure out a cutoff point I guess.... -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #4 April 20, 2005 For some 2000 years society has got by just fine with "Caveat Emptor" as the rule.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #5 April 20, 2005 If you don't know for sure the person has the jumps/currency to handle the canopy then just call the DZO/S&TA. If they give the thumbs up I'd say you're good to go. There are some people I'd not sell my canopy to, period, no matter who recommended them. For example if someone with 400 jumps tried to buy my Velo, I'd refuse without even checking their references. However, if someone on the borderline - say 800'ish jumps tried to buy it I'd check their references first. Unless I knew the person, I'd at least call to confirm their approximate experience / jump # level (even if they claim to have 2000 jumps). QuoteTrying to figure out a cutoff point I guess.... When you're not sure they're capable of handling the canopy. You have to sleep with yourself at night so it's whatever is within your comfort range. Of course even after all those checks, there's no guarantee that they won't hurt themselves (this is true for anyone) but at least you have done due diligence. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #6 April 20, 2005 So would you sell someone with 100 jumps a sub 100 canopy and feel fine about that? I think that in skydiving some responsibility rests on the sellers shoulders too. "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #7 April 20, 2005 I recently sold a Crossfire 109. About 20 people wanted it. My plan was to get a reference from someone else (not their bestest friend) before selling it. That turned out to be hard to do. I finally talked to a jumper in Russia who wanted it. It was hard to understand him since he barely spoke (wrote) english, but I did find a rigger in Washington who had jumped with this guy, and he confirmed he was currently jumping a 109 sized elliptical and was fairly competent on it. So I shipped it to the rigger in WA; he shipped it to Russia. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #8 April 20, 2005 QuoteFor some 2000 years society has got by just fine with "Caveat Emptor" as the rule. I think a few Wall Street CEOs wish that were the rule. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #9 April 20, 2005 That's funny Bill. I know who you are talking about. As for the original question, under a certain size canopy and for all high performance canopies, I pre-qualify the sale. I have called DZOs, S&T As, Riggers, Etc. I have on many occassions refuse a sale. And everytime I feel myself slipping an becoming more relaxed reality shoots me a good reminder that I am on the right track. The most vivid story is as follows if you care to read this far: Jumper X has bought every one of his canopies from me so far. The last one was on the fence of my comfort level. It was a Sabre 135. A few months later he calls to let me know he is ready for a Stiletto 120. We talk at length. I say no. Next weekend Jumper X demos one at another drop zone. He breaks his back and is paralized from the waist down. After a few years of therapy he is able to walk with assistance. But he still calls me from time to time to let me know that he wishes he had listened. I feel horrible for what he did to himself. But I don't know how I could deal, if it was my who sent him that canopy that he was most definately not ready for. Every time is sell a parachute, I think about that incident. And refusing sales doesn't seem to hurt my business any. In fact, the same customers I turn down are still my very loyal customers, right B.S.? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #10 April 21, 2005 QuoteThat's funny Bill. I know who you are talking about. As for the original question, under a certain size canopy and for all high performance canopies, I pre-qualify the sale. I have called DZOs, S&T As, Riggers, Etc. I have on many occassions refuse a sale. And everytime I feel myself slipping an becoming more relaxed reality shoots me a good reminder that I am on the right track. The most vivid story is as follows if you care to read this far: Jumper X has bought every one of his canopies from me so far. The last one was on the fence of my comfort level. It was a Sabre 135. A few months later he calls to let me know he is ready for a Stiletto 120. We talk at length. I say no. Next weekend Jumper X demos one at another drop zone. He breaks his back and is paralized from the waist down. After a few years of therapy he is able to walk with assistance. But he still calls me from time to time to let me know that he wishes he had listened. I feel horrible for what he did to himself. But I don't know how I could deal, if it was my who sent him that canopy that he was most definately not ready for. Every time is sell a parachute, I think about that incident. And refusing sales doesn't seem to hurt my business any. In fact, the same customers I turn down are still my very loyal customers, right B.S.? If someone wants something badly enough they will always find a way to get it. The answer, as always, is education, not restrictions.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #11 April 21, 2005 QuoteIf someone wants something badly enough they will always find a way to get it. The answer, as always, is education, not restrictions. Why don't you think that applies to firearms, too? SC, here we come. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #12 April 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf someone wants something badly enough they will always find a way to get it. The answer, as always, is education, not restrictions. Why don't you think that applies to firearms, too? SC, here we come. What makes you think I don't?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #13 April 21, 2005 >If someone wants something badly enough they will always find a >way to get it. The answer, as always, is education, not restrictions. Should DZ's allow new jumpers to jump without instruction if they understand and accept the risks? After all, if they say no, the jumper can always find a way to jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #14 April 21, 2005 That was my impression from some of the SC debates that have raged back and forth. If you agree to more education over more restriction, I have even more respect for your cognitive powers and judgement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #15 April 21, 2005 Quote>If someone wants something badly enough they will always find a >way to get it. The answer, as always, is education, not restrictions. Should DZ's allow new jumpers to jump without instruction if they understand and accept the risks? After all, if they say no, the jumper can always find a way to jump. There's no law against it. If a DZ chooses not to follow the BSRs, that's his/her privilege. If someone want to BASE off a cliff, they surely can. I have a friend who wears a parachute in his aerobatic plane - he's had no instruction but he's willing to bail out if he thinks it necessary. At some point we have to allow educated adults to make their own decisions and not nanny them. You cannot legislate good judgment.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skycat 0 #16 April 21, 2005 Quote I have a friend who wears a parachute in his aerobatic plane - he's had no instruction but he's willing to bail out if he thinks it necessary. I know this is a little off topic, but Derek does rigging for quite a few pilots and has offered them for free when they drop off their rigs to show them how it works and what they need to do when bailing out. So far not one of them has taken him up on it, pretty much all of them say they aren't going to need it they just have it to keep the FAA happy. As they say, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" Guess it's the same with canopy coaching, "You can lead a jumper to the course but you can't make him show up" Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #17 April 21, 2005 QuoteAt some point we have to allow educated adults to make their own decisions Are you under the impression that people who jump out of planes are all adults (this is not joke)? Are you alos under the impression that the eager new jumper, the kind who should not be jumping canopy 'X', is fully utilizing the information available to him or her, and making a purely logical decision, without emotion playing a factor? Lets be realistic. Not everyone is a super genius (or whatever you are, I know it's something along those lines). Furthmore, the consequences of making the wrong choice are long-standing and permanent. I defy you to find the wheelchair bound jumper who stands by his choice, and would not go back and do things differently if given the choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #18 April 21, 2005 I don't feel compelled to protect adults from themselves in most circumstances. In the example of someone wanting to do something that's just over his/her head, I'd feel compelled to guide that person in a better direction if I were able, but if that person's bound and determined, then it's on him. I know one person who learned to skydive by being thrown out of the plane with a rig. No first jump course involved. Do I think it's stupid? Of course. Is he grown? Yes. His choice. I think where the rules come in is to protect the dz, gear manufacturer, gear store, employees, etc., in case of a law suit. THAT's why sometimes educated adults should not be allowed to make their own decisions....to protect THESE people....not the dumbass with 50 jumps trying to jump the little bitty Xaos. Peace~ linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dayle 0 #19 April 21, 2005 I think it would depend on the person, for example, if you are selling a say, 97 Stiletto and the person you are selling it to is around 100 lbs, I don't think it would be a problem. If however the 100 jump wonder is a guy who weighs around 150-160, I would definitely reconsider. Dayle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GravityGirl 0 #20 April 21, 2005 QuoteI think where the rules come in is to protect the dz, gear manufacturer, gear store, employees, etc., in case of a law suit. THAT's why sometimes educated adults should not be allowed to make their own decisions....to protect THESE people....not the dumbass with 50 jumps trying to jump the little bitty Xaos. Although I surely don't want to get sued, that is not my primary motivation for restricting my gear sales to qualified jumpers. I personally would feel partly responsible if I knowingly sold a high performance parachute to an underqualified jumper. This is my personal choice. I educate myself and others as much as I can. Sometimes saying, "No" is a crystal clear indication that what someone is trying to buy an inappropriate canopy. In fact for the one customer who "did it" anyways without me, I have dozens more who think, "Holy shit! She is giving up a $2,000.00 sale because she is afraid I'll get hurt!" And that person who re-evaluates their choices, makes it all worth while. I fully intend to keep my customers around for a long time, so they can buy from me time and time again! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelel01 1 #21 April 21, 2005 My personal opinion: If you sell a Stilletto 97 to ANYONE with less than 100 jumps, regardless of their weight, then you're crazy. It's still a rather (perhaps very?) aggressive canopy, regardless of wingloading. And in order for it to be loaded at 1:1, the person would have to weigh approximately 75 pounds. 1:1 on that canopy would still be very different than 1:1 on a 170. Then throw in the fact that it's elliptical, and YIKES! Stilletto 97 + less than 100 jumps = disaster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #22 April 21, 2005 You need to go read PD site. They have a good article on wingloading and it's effects. It deals specifically with the misconception that 1:1 on a 100 sq ft canopy is the same as 1:1 on a 170 sq ft canopy. a 97 is a 97 - regardless of the loading. It'll still fly and dive like a bat outta hell. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites karenmeal 0 #23 April 21, 2005 Well, the canopy in question is a stiletto 107 which would be loaded at 1.5. So what do you all think would be the cutoff point for you to tell the person they can't buy it... 200, 300, 400, 500 jumps? *The issue has since been resolved, but now I am curious as to what other people would have done in the same scenario. -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #24 April 21, 2005 Jump numbers... I'd be more worried about their previous experience. If they were going from a Sabre 190 to a Stiletto 107 I could care less how many jumps they have. If they are going from a FX 103 to the Stiletto 107 I'd just ask about their experience under the 103 and why the change. If you wanted to only look at the jump numbers.... I'd use Brian Germains formula of .1 increase at every 100 jumps plus a .1 if its smaller then 150. So a 107 at 1.5... .I'd look for 600 jumps or more.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funks 1 #25 April 21, 2005 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1126081;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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kallend 2,148 #15 April 21, 2005 Quote>If someone wants something badly enough they will always find a >way to get it. The answer, as always, is education, not restrictions. Should DZ's allow new jumpers to jump without instruction if they understand and accept the risks? After all, if they say no, the jumper can always find a way to jump. There's no law against it. If a DZ chooses not to follow the BSRs, that's his/her privilege. If someone want to BASE off a cliff, they surely can. I have a friend who wears a parachute in his aerobatic plane - he's had no instruction but he's willing to bail out if he thinks it necessary. At some point we have to allow educated adults to make their own decisions and not nanny them. You cannot legislate good judgment.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #16 April 21, 2005 Quote I have a friend who wears a parachute in his aerobatic plane - he's had no instruction but he's willing to bail out if he thinks it necessary. I know this is a little off topic, but Derek does rigging for quite a few pilots and has offered them for free when they drop off their rigs to show them how it works and what they need to do when bailing out. So far not one of them has taken him up on it, pretty much all of them say they aren't going to need it they just have it to keep the FAA happy. As they say, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" Guess it's the same with canopy coaching, "You can lead a jumper to the course but you can't make him show up" Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #17 April 21, 2005 QuoteAt some point we have to allow educated adults to make their own decisions Are you under the impression that people who jump out of planes are all adults (this is not joke)? Are you alos under the impression that the eager new jumper, the kind who should not be jumping canopy 'X', is fully utilizing the information available to him or her, and making a purely logical decision, without emotion playing a factor? Lets be realistic. Not everyone is a super genius (or whatever you are, I know it's something along those lines). Furthmore, the consequences of making the wrong choice are long-standing and permanent. I defy you to find the wheelchair bound jumper who stands by his choice, and would not go back and do things differently if given the choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #18 April 21, 2005 I don't feel compelled to protect adults from themselves in most circumstances. In the example of someone wanting to do something that's just over his/her head, I'd feel compelled to guide that person in a better direction if I were able, but if that person's bound and determined, then it's on him. I know one person who learned to skydive by being thrown out of the plane with a rig. No first jump course involved. Do I think it's stupid? Of course. Is he grown? Yes. His choice. I think where the rules come in is to protect the dz, gear manufacturer, gear store, employees, etc., in case of a law suit. THAT's why sometimes educated adults should not be allowed to make their own decisions....to protect THESE people....not the dumbass with 50 jumps trying to jump the little bitty Xaos. Peace~ linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dayle 0 #19 April 21, 2005 I think it would depend on the person, for example, if you are selling a say, 97 Stiletto and the person you are selling it to is around 100 lbs, I don't think it would be a problem. If however the 100 jump wonder is a guy who weighs around 150-160, I would definitely reconsider. Dayle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #20 April 21, 2005 QuoteI think where the rules come in is to protect the dz, gear manufacturer, gear store, employees, etc., in case of a law suit. THAT's why sometimes educated adults should not be allowed to make their own decisions....to protect THESE people....not the dumbass with 50 jumps trying to jump the little bitty Xaos. Although I surely don't want to get sued, that is not my primary motivation for restricting my gear sales to qualified jumpers. I personally would feel partly responsible if I knowingly sold a high performance parachute to an underqualified jumper. This is my personal choice. I educate myself and others as much as I can. Sometimes saying, "No" is a crystal clear indication that what someone is trying to buy an inappropriate canopy. In fact for the one customer who "did it" anyways without me, I have dozens more who think, "Holy shit! She is giving up a $2,000.00 sale because she is afraid I'll get hurt!" And that person who re-evaluates their choices, makes it all worth while. I fully intend to keep my customers around for a long time, so they can buy from me time and time again! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #21 April 21, 2005 My personal opinion: If you sell a Stilletto 97 to ANYONE with less than 100 jumps, regardless of their weight, then you're crazy. It's still a rather (perhaps very?) aggressive canopy, regardless of wingloading. And in order for it to be loaded at 1:1, the person would have to weigh approximately 75 pounds. 1:1 on that canopy would still be very different than 1:1 on a 170. Then throw in the fact that it's elliptical, and YIKES! Stilletto 97 + less than 100 jumps = disaster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #22 April 21, 2005 You need to go read PD site. They have a good article on wingloading and it's effects. It deals specifically with the misconception that 1:1 on a 100 sq ft canopy is the same as 1:1 on a 170 sq ft canopy. a 97 is a 97 - regardless of the loading. It'll still fly and dive like a bat outta hell. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #23 April 21, 2005 Well, the canopy in question is a stiletto 107 which would be loaded at 1.5. So what do you all think would be the cutoff point for you to tell the person they can't buy it... 200, 300, 400, 500 jumps? *The issue has since been resolved, but now I am curious as to what other people would have done in the same scenario. -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #24 April 21, 2005 Jump numbers... I'd be more worried about their previous experience. If they were going from a Sabre 190 to a Stiletto 107 I could care less how many jumps they have. If they are going from a FX 103 to the Stiletto 107 I'd just ask about their experience under the 103 and why the change. If you wanted to only look at the jump numbers.... I'd use Brian Germains formula of .1 increase at every 100 jumps plus a .1 if its smaller then 150. So a 107 at 1.5... .I'd look for 600 jumps or more.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #25 April 21, 2005 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1126081;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
