Snobby UK Vibe

[barroch 0]

Sorry to report this but the UK skydiving vibe is such a disapointment compared to the vibe out in Oz.

I did my AFF in Australia this year, getting up to a level 7 meeting the most friendly, supportive and helpful people in the world of skydiving. I turned up to a dropzone in the UK (which will remain nameless) expecting to do be greated with open arms and for them to be pleased to have another young skydiver on their books. How wrong could I have been. For some crazy reason they assumed that all of my training in Oz wasnt worth the log book it was written on! My jumpmaster in Oz was more than happy to speak to the jumpmasters in the UK to discuss my progress but they actually suggested putting me through the whole of my AFF levels again! Bearing in mind it was only three weeks since my last jump and I had every jump on DVD!

What makes the UK training so much better than the rest of the worlds may I ask! I appreciate that AFF is slightly different around the world but all they would hav to do is compare the two training disaplines and fill in the gaps! It now looks as though I'll be £1300 out of pocket! And yes we did use the same rigs in Oz as the UK in fact they were 220s rather than a big fat 290s!!! & I dont need a conversion to the BOC throw away.

No wonder no northern, working class lads like myself are taking this awsome sport up, because it is fully of southern, rich boys who can afford to go through there AFF, 6 times over!

Sorry to rant and rave but as you can appreciate I am pretty irate!

[darrenspooner 0]

I don't think this is unique to UK.

The 3 dropzones that I use in UK are fantastic, and can't do enough for me. Yet I visited a DZ in Oz a while back and was treated like a piece of shit by an arrogant instructor and an inappropriately aggressive and punchy safety officer for no reason at all other than asking some safety questions. He also called me a "fucking girl" in front of my wife because when I demonstrated my reserve drills and used two hands on each handle, as I had been taught.

Additionally, one of the senior instructors put a tandem harness on his 3 year old and forced him, crying and screaming, into the plane and up to altitude and then back down again as a way of threatening him to behave. His wife was chain smoking at about 8 months pregnant, and the whole DZ made me and my wife feel like scum. Of course, these last two points aren't indicative of their skydiving expertise or their manner with visitors, but at the least it shows insensitivity towards two people that should be more precious than anyone to them.

Your experience isn't indicative of the UK. It is, of course, saddening that you could have a poor experience at any DZ anywhere in the world, but please do not generalise your experience and summarise that the British are snobby.

[achowe 0]

here here.

antiquated i sometimes think, but not snobby.

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Woooaaaaaa!!! Woooaaaa!!! I'm gettin' off it!

[gus 1]

I've heard this same story so many times it's not funny. A jumper turns up to a UK dropzone part way through his training and instead of the dz thinking "here's an opportunity to create a lifelong customer" they think "this cunt denied me income by training abroad and now he has the cheek to expect me to finish it off for him". Welcome to UK skydiving.

My advice? Try a different dz. Turn up during the week when it's less busy and stressed out and expect to repeat some of the training (they don't know you from Jack remember). If that doesn't work get a cheap flight to Empuria (where you will be treated very well), finish your aff in a couple of days and come back a fully licensed jumper.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[Stumpy 284]

Probably best not to leave a dz on your profile also because regardless of whether or not its the one you mean, people will draw assumptions.

If it IS that one, then i haven't been there but from all the feedback i have heard it is one of the few DZ's that really values its jumpers so this seems unusual....

Edited to add: and some of us "southern rich boys" might take offence to your last comment. I did AFF in oz too (hunter valley as it was then) and i had no problems coming back. I had to redo a level 6/7 but i think that was only fair considering they did not know me....

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[darrenspooner 0]

Try Old Buckenham in Norfolk. They're cool, and there's an Aussie on staff in some form or another.

[skydog 2]

Why not name names? I take it you wont be going back there.....so whats the problem?

The more DZ's we know to avoid, the less money they make. Maybe this will make them change their attitudes.....

Bryn

Journey not destination.....

[Zoter 0]

PM sent

[mdrejhon 8]

I have repeatedly read many places that it is important to be "A" rated (the equivalent of USPA "A" for your country -- 25 jumps) at the same dropzone for all your jumps, to minimize chances of this kind of thing.... So I'm going to be sticking to one dropzone for all my jumps until I get my rating, to avoid nasty surprises... THEN after I am rated, I'll try other dropzones!

Can't they just redo AFF level 6 and 7 for you? To make sure that you're really for real. Only a couple hundred pounds, I'd think? Talk to another instructor, maybe?

[pincheck 0]

Sorry but in this day and age this just plan stinks. There is supposed to be closer cooperation between different counrty governing organizations.
Me i did my AFF in spain and have returned and jumped their recently with no problem all i did was show my membership of bpa and FAA book and that was good enough. I don't know exactly how the Australia system works but to me i would expect just to do a checkout dive with a instructor in the uk to confirm your competence in the air after showing my log book to them. I would say try another dz, their revenue loss in the long run take your custom elswhere mate, good luck.
I would also suggest making a complaint direct to the Bpa who has the aussie governing body in its links page. The sport is damned expensive enough in this country as it is, without redoing the same stuff twice.

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[adamsr 0]

I really think it depends on which DZ you go to, each one is completely different, and even the same DZ can seem completely different depending on wether you go there during the week or on a weekend.

From my experience it is generally the bigger DZ's that arer the worst for this problem, and maybe you will fare better if you try a smaller dz with a better community.

I can always remember my first trip to my non-home DZ, only had 32 jumps (and only 4 of thos since qualifying cat 8) and was made to feel very out of place, all of the staff (especially the CCI) were very unapproachable and it seemed such a hassle to answer my questions. All of that put me off that particular DZ big time, as it is low time jumpers especially that need more support and more help in adjusting to new dropzones.

But hey, there are still 20 odd other dropzones in the UK to try!!

[Tonto 1]

Sadly, it's all about the money.

I have many, many students come out here and do AFF, and many have problems back in the UK. It's only the ones where I've managed to contact their CCI prior to doing the jumps, mail him the program we follow, send the student with video and a few of my business cards so that Instructors on the other side can verify what's in the logbook that they've had no problems.

Good luck. And keep jumping.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[darrenspooner 0]

Am I missing something here? Dropzones are businesses. Businesses need to make money. Solo jumpers do not bring any reasonable revenue to UK dropzones. Their jumping is probably subsidised by tandem students. An islander with 10 experienced jumpers makes the owners, like £8.00 or something ridiculous.

Did you not check whether the course you planned to do in Oz was accredited by the BPA, or that it was directly transferrable? You are blaming a UK dropzone for costing you £1300 when you clearly didn't check what you were paying for in the first intance. And you want that DZ to "welcome you with open arms" when it would take their time and resources to make sure you are safe without making any money at all.

Making comments about "snobby brits" and making speculations that the only people that can afford to skydive in the UK are incompetent southerners with too much money is unlikely to get you greeted with open arms at any DZ.

This is your responsbility, not a DZ who chooses to not welcome you with open arms because you trained overseas.

[darrenspooner 0]

And yeah, I'm pissed off too, because I'm fed up with people on here making generalisations that all brits are arrogant, pompous, snobby, incompetent wankers.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Did you not check whether the course you planned to do in Oz was accredited by the BPA, or that it was directly transferrable? You are blaming a UK dropzone for costing you £1300 when you clearly didn't check what you were paying for in the first intance. And you want that DZ to "welcome you with open arms" when it would take their time and resources to make sure you are safe without making any money at all.

The generalization was unfair, but I'm not sure why you're so eager to defend the DZ either. The 7 AFF jump program is used all over the globe (the newer ISP notwithstanding) and he had video of every jump. What reason is there to put him back at jump 1?

If the DZO doesn't like the profit of upjumpers, he can choose to be a tandem mill.

[DeepThought 0]

I did my AFF in Spain.
When I came back to the UK I was made to feel very welcome.

What I did make sure, was that the AFF course I did was the full BPA 8 level course plus my 10 consolidation jumps ( and a few more), and that my instructor was able to call what would become my home DZ, so when I turned up I was expected.


In my opinion if the CCI of a drop zone does not thoroughly question a new person turning up at their DZ he/she is not doing there job properly. If someone turns up unexpected and they have not got a license or fully completed a course that would allow them to get a license in that country, surely they have to at the very least complete the course to allow them to get a license.

If you spend a bit of time at your DZ I'm sure it wont take you long to get into the swing of things, and you make new friends pretty quick.

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You only have one life, make the most of it.

[Antidote 0]

Then make the DZ a student/tandem factory and call it that, instead of a DZ.

Students and tandems are what subbsidizes our jump prices at my club.

However, the regular and particularly the hard core jumpers are the heart of the club. They're what the sport is about. Students need to be students before they can be regular jumpers, and they are welcome. Those seeking a once in a life time experience are just as welcome.

But the core of any DZ in this country are the regulars and hard core jumpers. They do all the footwork and they are why a DZ is a DZ.

Imagine hanging around jumping at a "DZ" with only stuents/extreme newbies and tandems.

Very educational. Very amusing.

I should add that we only have one commercial DZ in the country - all others are clubs. In mine, we're not paid one cent for anything. We pack, we instruct, we do AFF - without charge. So it is erroneous to say that all dropzones are businesses. Ours is about jumping, and set up in a way that those that do it most have the most to gain, and give most.

[goose491 0]

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Am I missing something here? Dropzones are businesses. Businesses need to make money. Solo jumpers do not bring any reasonable revenue to UK dropzones. Their jumping is probably subsidised by tandem students. An islander with 10 experienced jumpers makes the owners, like £8.00 or something ridiculous.

Did you not check whether the course you planned to do in Oz was accredited by the BPA, or that it was directly transferrable? You are blaming a UK dropzone for costing you £1300 when you clearly didn't check what you were paying for in the first intance. And you want that DZ to "welcome you with open arms" when it would take their time and resources to make sure you are safe without making any money at all.

Making comments about "snobby brits" and making speculations that the only people that can afford to skydive in the UK are incompetent southerners with too much money is unlikely to get you greeted with open arms at any DZ.

This is your responsbility, not a DZ who chooses to not welcome you with open arms because you trained overseas.

This in itself is pretty arrogant. Discussing the money your dropzone won't make because a new jumper did some of his/her early training elsewhere? It's laughable really! AFF is AFF and you bloody-well know it! There are minor differences from one place to the next but who the hell are you to tell him his training is not-valid? Especially when there's VIDEO! And your only argument, the fact that a UK DZ didn't make money on it?

Put yourself in the new jumpers shoes and listen to yourself talking. Bet you'd not like yourself much huh?

To the original poster: Simply put, go somewhere else. They don't deserve your business.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[darrenspooner 0]

I make no judgement about the quality or legitmacy of anyone's aff. I did part of my aff in Australia a long time ago and it was not qualitatively different to when I did the full aff at Langar. What I am ranting about is that this bloke vents his anger onto a DZ here when he should have bloody well checked what he was paying for in the first place. If the BPA didn't have such good gatekeeping then we'd have more fatalities.

I do feel for this chap. Please don't think me mercenary. If I had paid good money to go to Oz and do aff, and it seemed exactly the same as aff in the uk then I'd be pissed too. But don't forget that the dz is a business and as such has the ultimate right to say no to anyone it likes.

People have posted here to say they have checked before they did aff overseas to make sure that what they are doing is bpa accredited. Seems wise to me.

The thing I take most offence to is that the person who started this thread is implying negative things about UK dzs in general. That is wrong. The dzs I have jumped at have been very professional, very safety conscious, and sure, a bit antiquated, but they are have been nothing like this person has implied.

[bob.dino 1]

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And yeah, I'm pissed off too, because I'm fed up with people on here making generalisations that all brits are arrogant, pompous, snobby, incompetent wankers.

While it is an over-generalisation, there does seem to be problems related to skydiving in the UK. I have two friends that refuse to jump in the UK (even though they live there) because of the attitudes they encounter.

There's also a steady trickle of folk complaining on dz.com (cf. this Hinton thread). This, to me, indicates something's wrong.

For the record, I lived in London for four years, but have never skydived in the UK.

[CornishChris 5]

Well we will find out how they deal with me this weekend. I did my AFF in Spain nearly three years ago, then abut 20 jumps in the UK then the rest in Australia. I have a UK A License and an Ozzie D license.

When I got back from AFF I still had one consol to do and they were fine with me. Lets just hope the same goes this time round.

Good to see you over 300 Dave. Miss me?

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[lizzieuk 0]

I think it's very unfair to comment that all UK DZs are snobby, although I more than understand your situation, as I'm going through a very similar thing myself at the moment. I did my AFF out in Empuria in February, and coming back the UK without a level 8 hop and pop has made my life difficult to say the least. I have been to five UK DZs (I get around a bit due to my university club and living at two different ends of the country) and only at one have I found the situation that works best for me to do my consols.

Some like a high level of commitment to just their DZ until you're qualified, so put you through tests and lots of training, some will charge huge rates as AFF instructors are not easily available, but all will be vary of jumping with a student they have no experience of, and rightly so. Video helps a lot, and I was fortunate enough to find a very helpful instructor/CCI who would jump with me, repeating my level 7 as a consol, video me and guide me through some more consols.

It is definitely worth looking around to find the right place to jump - always give the DZ a call and be explicit about what your situation is before you turn up and they'll be much better equipped to deal with you. Once you know how to work with a neew system you'll see it's not so snobby - everything has it's reasons and at the end of the day, there'll always be somewhere which will suit you.

[Plummets 0]

Well it definately still happens, did my AFF and consols in the states (Sebastian) 2 years ago and on return... just needed a sign off from a BPA instructor, my mate needed to complete 4 consoles, was told by the school at Sibson, training not good enough, would have to retake levels and consols and as over 217 lbs BPA rules wouldn't allow it ! (which is bollocks by the way)

Anyway went to Hinton and the CCI there Dave Emerson was fine about it, we both got signed off with no problems. Give him a call if your still struggling

I do jump back at Sibson now and must say that it is a great place once qualified

"Life is a bowl of deadly nightshade, stay way way out on the rim brother"

[ps5601 0]

I suspect that the problem is not just 'cos you trained outside the UK. Many (but not all) DZs are not good at taking students from other UK DZs until they are fully qualified. The only exception that I know of is when the BCPA move around, and then everything is set up in advance.

The problem is often that different places teach their students slightly different things in different ways (and that the "new" DZ doesn't see much of the money).

Under the BPA system you are still a student until you have done your hop 'n' pop AND the 10 consolidation jumps. Just doing your 7 or 8 levels abroad and being signed off is NOT sufficient in the UK. This is often the cause of many of the problems students being trained abroad face.

One other problem that I have seen when running progression trips abroad, especially when the student didn't reach BPA CAT 8 but did finish the foreign course is the student then doesn't jump again for a couple of months, and then turns up to a UK DZ. Under BPA rules not only are you still a student, but you are now an uncurrent student! I have seen people be caught out by this on several occasions!

Aside from that we all know that the BPA (and several DZs) can be more about finding reasons not to let people jump rather than finding ways to help them in the air safely (let's not even talk about the insurance).

Blue skies

Paul

[bob.dino 1]

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Miss me?

No .

Actually, Oli hasn't been out to the DZ since you left. It's like it's just not the same for him without you .