darrenspooner 0 #1 May 3, 2005 I'm always pretty careful about giving anyone advice because I don't have any expertise. But I was on a load on Saturday that had a really bad spot because the upper winds were changeable. Most people landed a mile away. I hung on the rears as long as I could, but still landed a long way away. On the walk back a newly qualified aff guy, who had just done his 4th consol, asked me if I thought it was wise to open higher if I realised I had a bad spot. Should I give advice to someone like this, given I only have 130 jumps? This is what I said - "best thing is to talk to your instructor, but my feeling is that opening higher than you had told the jumpmaster could be dangerous because people that left the plane after you might go through you, and its much better landing off and walking as opposed to increasing risk unnecessarily. Your best bet is, if you open and you're a long way away you could flatten out the glide by pulling evenly on your rear risers, or perhaps just stay on half brakes, but that won't be as effective as using the rear risers". But then this other guy, with less than 100 jumps, overheard me and then arrogantly told me that I should not be giving advice to a consol jumper. Thoughts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #2 May 3, 2005 you did ok. we all give advices even when we don't mean to do it. it is important, however, that both sides knows who is giving the advice and who is receiving it. i don't see anything wrong with exchanging views as long as you point out that you are no expert, this is your own understanding, and he/she should talk to an instructor too. when i was new i've heard a few stupid advices too and since not everyone point out that they are no pros, its also the responsibility of the one hearing the advice to know who is giving it... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 36 #3 May 3, 2005 IMO, this issue is more about responsibility than knowledge. Meaning, sometimes two very experienced instructors may still have different advice on specific situations. Some advice may be the same as a low-timer's opinion, and other advice may be different. The important thing is that, if someone is ever hurt on a skydive and mentions during the investigation that he was following your advice (even if it's excellent advice), you will probably feel happier if he had said that he followed an instructor's advice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #4 May 3, 2005 Your advice on using the rears is both canopy and condition specific. Some canopies prefer brakes, some rears. Some conditions, like downwind facing into a strong wind, require full drive, (Again, condition and canopy specific) while upwind and deep, brakes or rears will work better. As to the issue of different instructors giving different advice, this will happen. Trick is to know who you're listening to. Are you listening to the instructor who's a member of the hiking club and often walks back from poor spots, or are you listening to the instructor who lands back at the DZ without compromising the safety offered by an out landing? Many, many senior jumpers don't know very much about their gear, or how it works under different conditions. GPS has created a generation of jumpers who don't know how to spot, or who know it in theory and never get to practice. Those senior jumpers who jump (or used to jump) 7 cells, Low perocity canopies ("F-111") or have experience on rounds will understand more of the subtle machanisims of magically returning from beyond the poor spot, and will do so when required. The type of advice you handed out was OK, unless that jumper finds themselves downwind in a high wind hanging on brakes or risers. The guy who questioned your giving advice may be right, but often junior jumpers are intimidated by their instructors and ask their peers. Whether some advice is better than no advice at all? I don't know. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #5 May 3, 2005 In a different thread in this same forum, some criticism was thrown around because several people with around 100 jumps were advising someone with 40 jumps on wing loading. While reading that, I thought something to myself that I had never realized before. It's not just about jump numbers. If someone asked me now about what wing loading was right for them below 100 jumps, and I had to give an answer, my answer could only be based on my own sub-100 jump experience since I've never instructed anyone else. But even if I happened to have 3000 jumps right now, but had never been an instructor in any capacity, I still wouldn't have any better answer other than "oh sure, WL of x.x worked for me at 80 jumps!" (which may not be relevant to them if I was a particularly fast or slow learner) So maybe that's why people are always saying "ask your instructor!" www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #6 May 3, 2005 Depends on what the advice is. I'd take advice on the likelihood of an abrupt change in the weather from a whuffo professional meteorologist. I'd take advice on oxygen use and hypoxia from an aviation medical examiner whuffo. I'd take advice on safety in and around the jump plane, and on the winds aloft, from a whuffo pilot...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #7 May 3, 2005 Quote This is what I said - "best thing is to talk to your instructor, but my feeling is that opening higher than you had told the jumpmaster could be dangerous because people that left the plane after you might go through you, and its much better landing off and walking as opposed to increasing risk unnecessarily. Minor hijacking - what do people think of the tradeoff? Is the risk of flying through each other much greater higher up than if he had opened at 4000 (typical for lowtimer)? I did open 2k high on Saturday after getting through a gap in the cloud cover and finding myself well north of what I was used to. But I had the luxury of being last out and knowing that my buddy below me in view. Lacking that setup, the availability of suitable outs would be the determinant. Bad/good/unknown? 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Tonto 1 #4 May 3, 2005 Your advice on using the rears is both canopy and condition specific. Some canopies prefer brakes, some rears. Some conditions, like downwind facing into a strong wind, require full drive, (Again, condition and canopy specific) while upwind and deep, brakes or rears will work better. As to the issue of different instructors giving different advice, this will happen. Trick is to know who you're listening to. Are you listening to the instructor who's a member of the hiking club and often walks back from poor spots, or are you listening to the instructor who lands back at the DZ without compromising the safety offered by an out landing? Many, many senior jumpers don't know very much about their gear, or how it works under different conditions. GPS has created a generation of jumpers who don't know how to spot, or who know it in theory and never get to practice. Those senior jumpers who jump (or used to jump) 7 cells, Low perocity canopies ("F-111") or have experience on rounds will understand more of the subtle machanisims of magically returning from beyond the poor spot, and will do so when required. The type of advice you handed out was OK, unless that jumper finds themselves downwind in a high wind hanging on brakes or risers. The guy who questioned your giving advice may be right, but often junior jumpers are intimidated by their instructors and ask their peers. Whether some advice is better than no advice at all? I don't know. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #5 May 3, 2005 In a different thread in this same forum, some criticism was thrown around because several people with around 100 jumps were advising someone with 40 jumps on wing loading. While reading that, I thought something to myself that I had never realized before. It's not just about jump numbers. If someone asked me now about what wing loading was right for them below 100 jumps, and I had to give an answer, my answer could only be based on my own sub-100 jump experience since I've never instructed anyone else. But even if I happened to have 3000 jumps right now, but had never been an instructor in any capacity, I still wouldn't have any better answer other than "oh sure, WL of x.x worked for me at 80 jumps!" (which may not be relevant to them if I was a particularly fast or slow learner) So maybe that's why people are always saying "ask your instructor!" www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #6 May 3, 2005 Depends on what the advice is. I'd take advice on the likelihood of an abrupt change in the weather from a whuffo professional meteorologist. I'd take advice on oxygen use and hypoxia from an aviation medical examiner whuffo. I'd take advice on safety in and around the jump plane, and on the winds aloft, from a whuffo pilot...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #7 May 3, 2005 Quote This is what I said - "best thing is to talk to your instructor, but my feeling is that opening higher than you had told the jumpmaster could be dangerous because people that left the plane after you might go through you, and its much better landing off and walking as opposed to increasing risk unnecessarily. Minor hijacking - what do people think of the tradeoff? Is the risk of flying through each other much greater higher up than if he had opened at 4000 (typical for lowtimer)? I did open 2k high on Saturday after getting through a gap in the cloud cover and finding myself well north of what I was used to. But I had the luxury of being last out and knowing that my buddy below me in view. Lacking that setup, the availability of suitable outs would be the determinant. Bad/good/unknown? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
