Ron 10 #51 April 5, 2004 QuoteAnd what about the rest of us? SDC has one of the best teaching programs when it comes to Canopy flight....But that is one DZ..And you never answer my question of how many DZ's you have been to , and how many student operations you have seen. You will clearly see that not all programs teach canopy skills like SDC....And the also the USPA can't implement a very good program for just about anything. So education while being the correct answer...Is many years from being a workable solution. QuotePersonally I was under a Stiletto before I hit 100 jumps. Was it blind luck or skill that prevented me from killing myself under it? Maybe both? QuoteWasn't this the same reasons we stop teaching students with SOS and moved to BOC? I'm hoping you mean ROL to BOC. SOS is a cutaway and reserve set up. For what its worth I did 11 jumps on Sat, and landed dead center of the peas on 9, in the peas on one other and one foot out on 1 (I jumped last jumps conditions). Can you? Could you at 100 jumps? Think about it...While Bills list is great...And I mean great...The real proof to me is landing where you want....And if you can do that then the chances of getting hurt do to a bad spot go WAY down."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #52 April 5, 2004 I have been to 17 DZs now, in addition to Richmond, Quincy and Rantoul. I've looked at the training programs at each of those places and have seen some of them sorely lacking in many areas, gear maintenance (including the tandem rigs and canopies) to teaching methods to putting students out under round reserves. I realize the industry is not at the same place SDC is....do you think it should be? There are places that teach on Navigators that do include canopy control - but are the students as prepared to transition to non-student canopies as those that learn on Sabre 2s? As far as my skills....On jump 89 under my Stiletto I landed in a backyard, my only out on a balloon jump at Quincy....and it was a small out. My accuracy has increased from experience, and I realize I am better than now than I was in the past. I haven't tried for my Pro, but I'm sure if I really put my heart into it, I could do it....but there is always room for improvement. I aspire to have better canopy skills all the time - I love to borrow a smaller canopy for a few jumps then go back to mine to help change my perspective and help me realize I can get more out of what I already have. I'm in no rush either - I've been talking about downzizing from my current canopy for three years now. As far as bad spots - ever jump with Roger as a pilot? His spots were as bad as people said - I've landed out far to many times in my short career._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #53 April 5, 2004 Quote Size is not as important as planeform and WL. really? so we should give that 90 lb girl a 120 once she has her A? she's under 1:1 after all. I took a bunch of stuff away from John Lenblanc's seminar that makes a lot of sense in Kallend's world... one of them is that size is MORE important than WL, especially when it comes to smaller people at lower experiences. Even more important than either is frame of reference -- if a person has only been flying a 210, they don't belong on a 120 no matter how much they weigh, it's too big of a step, whereas someone having a bunch of jumps on a 135, even at a higher WL, is more equipped to hit the 120. Remember, increasing WL increases speed, not responsiveness. Dropping 15 sqft of canopy is NOT the same thing as strapping on 15 lbs of lead.. a smaller wing is a different wing and will fly differently, even at the same WL. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #54 April 5, 2004 QuoteI've looked at the training programs at each of those places and have seen some of them sorely lacking in many areas, gear maintenance (including the tandem rigs and canopies) to teaching methods to putting students out under round reserves. There are good reasons for round reserves....I don't buy them all, but there are some compelling reason for them..such as you will never have an issue with a double out. But I would be willing to bet that most DZ's use rounds since they are cheap. Yes, SDC has a good training program. It does a very good job with canopy control. However, it is only that way at that ONE DZ in the US. If every DZ had that training program it would be a safer sport...Guess what? Not evey DZ is like that. And they will not be either. You yourself have said that other programs have faults (And SDC has faults also). And there is no way that the USPA can implament any training program...Just look at the mess of the ISP. So even if USPA decided to copy SDC canopy training program...It would not be able to enforce it, and no one would have to do it...Instead what you would get is some DZ's putting people out on HP canopies WITHOUT good training. QuoteMy accuracy has increased from experience, and I realize I am better than now than I was in the past. And while training is good...Training is nothing without the ability to DO it. And that comes from EXPERIENCE."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #55 April 5, 2004 Quotereally? so we should give that 90 lb girl a 120 once she has her A? she's under 1:1 after all. Jerm...stop being ridiculous. You KNOW that would not be alright. And you KNOW I would not approve of that. But when we are talking about a person downsizing....The TYPE of canopy , and the WL has a great amount to do about it...The general SIZE can do a lot. And I know all about PD's sizing speaches...I have given them. I'm talking about guys with 100-300 jumps, not some STUDENT, and their first set of gear. Quoteif a person has only been flying a 210, they don't belong on a 120 no matter how much they weigh, it's too big of a step, whereas someone having a bunch of jumps on a 135, even at a higher WL, is more equipped to hit the 120. And where in your little world did that 90 pound girl with the new A get all that experience under a 135? QuoteRemember, increasing WL increases speed, not responsiveness Yes, but changing planform WILL increase resposiveness. Sometimes even more than changing size. As for your WL = speed...Yep. But its the speed that kills people. NOT the responsiveness. Since you like PD's site look at this from it: QuoteGeneral Concepts that are frequently misunderstood A. Different canopy models of the same size may perform differently, but they will fly approximately the same speed. Wing loading is the biggest determinant of speed. A Stiletto 190 is not really faster than a Sabre 190, or even a PD 190! Other aspects of performance will be different, however. (Turn rate, glide angle, etc.) These differences may influence a person’s impression of speed. Speed kills...And it says perormance depends on design. And something else. QuoteThe Velocity is intended only for very experienced pilots who have already flown a small elliptical canopy for several skydiving seasons, and consider themselves very current and very proficient. I bet a good number of guys jumping a Xbraced...Did not jump a small eliptical for SEVERAL seasons. And are not VERY current, and VERY proficient."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #56 April 5, 2004 I'd rather jump a spectre 120 than a velocity 150 (if there was such a thing). I'd bet that a 90 lb student would be safer under the spectre too. Sure, a spectre 120 might be more responsive than a spectre 150, even at equal wing loadings, but a docile 150 canopy loaded at 1:1 is not going to suddenly be super twitchy and over-responsive at 120 loaded at 1:1. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Designer 0 #57 April 5, 2004 Depends on your definition of a "Novice".There are just certain things an "A License " skydiver should know about his/her parachute!If you ask these new jumpers questions about how/what they know,90% would tell you they didn't know they were supposed to learn how to do that(riser turns,brake turns,etc.)These are the ones we worry about.The 10% who know how,why the parachute they currently fly does what it does,I have no problems with them going slow and taking the time(many jumps) to step down from a 190 to a 170,170 to 150?See my point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
