DrewGPM 0 #26 May 18, 2005 guess I wasn't clear when I said "The only time half brakes doesn't work is when the winds are too high." What I meant to say was that if you have fly into a head wind and the winds are too high, half brakes will not get you back from a long spot. Half brakes makes you lose SOME forward speed, and almost ALL of your descent. You will cover more ground per foot of altitude. If the wind speed is greater than the resulting forward speed, then you can't use this technique. Is that more clear? The front riser input makes you dive toward the earth, speeding up your altitude loss. When you release that pressure, the extra speed will help give you more drive into the wind. You gain some forward distance. Once the energy bleeds off, you are back to getting no drive. It's a great technique if the winds are pushing you away from your landing area. Front risers are MUCH tougher to use. It takes a lot of strength. Half the people I jump say they are not strong enough to use them. If they find themselves going backwards or in a long spot and flying in to high winds, they pick a safe off-field spot to land. Forget trying to get back to the landing area. Golden Rule is to land safe, not close. As for the "depends on what canopy"...i don't think it does. All parachutes plane out at half and full brakes. That's why the flare works on landing. The flares means you lose all altitude loss, and you only go forward. You can't sustain that for long, because the canopy will run out of energy. Since the brakes work on the same concept on all of these canopies, i don't know why there would be a difference. Yes, some canopies have a deeper flare than others...but half brakes is ALWAYS somewhere near the half way point of full flight and full flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #27 May 18, 2005 QuoteHalf brakes makes you lose SOME forward speed, and almost ALL of your descent Brakes slow the canopy down both in sink and in drive. If what you said were true our glide slope would be much better than the 2.6 or so we get, and we could stay aloft a lot longer...However, in truth while we could stay afloat, we would land over almost the very spot we were over when we started unless the winds push us. This is why half brakes can work when UP wind. We stay aloft and the wind speed pushes us towards the landing area. However when DOWN wind going into brakes will reduce our airspeed, and while yes it will reduce the sink rate, the fact that we are now slowing the canopy down AND facing into the wind will mean we will cover LESS ground...Although we will be aloft longer. If the canopy has a fwd speed of say 20 MPH and the winds are 10...You have a downwind speed of 30 MPH in full flight, and a speed into the wind of 10 MPH. If you are flying you go to half brakes you will slow the desent rate AND the forward speed. Lets just play and say that half brakes halves everything. So now your canopy has a FWD speed of 10 MPH and will stay aloft twice as long. So if you are flying DW you have a canopy speed of 10 MPH + a wind speed of 10 MPH that will give you a 20 MPH ground speed. The fact that you now have twice as long to travel will take you farther. The reverse is true for into the wind. If you have a canopy speed of 20 MPH and a wind speed of 10 MPH you will have a ground speed of 10 MPH. If half brakes halves everything then you will have twice as long to go ZERO MPH across the ground. Again from PD: QuoteThe glide ratio gets better as you depress the brakes up to a point. In winds, the best performance getting back from bad spots changes, and is not necessarily acheived at the point where the best glide ratio exists. In a tailwind, very deep brakes works well, and in a very high headwind, a little front risers may be needed. QuoteYou will cover more ground per foot of altitude. If the wind speed is greater than the resulting forward speed, then you can't use this technique. Is that more clear? Which is why brakes should not be used to try and get upwind to the target. Why do you think brakes are called "brakes"? They produce lift, but lift is a function of airspeed. Once you go past say quarter brakes your airspeed starts to reduce and your ability to generate lift will drop.....This is why students are told to "let it fly" before landing, and you don't see experienced jumpers on final in half brakes till the landing flare. This continues until you stall the canopy and it falls. Modern canopies have a much greater range before they start to get into the reigion of reversed command, but they still do. QuoteAs for the "depends on what canopy"...i don't think it does. All parachutes plane out at half and full brakes. That's why the flare works on landing Wrong, a Parafoil, Sharpchutter, Startrac...ect will sink at half brakes, not plane out."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewGPM 0 #28 May 18, 2005 I think we've hijacked this thread long enough. This was supposed to be about warping the canopy. After rereading our posts, we are not on the same page. You are focusing your discussion on upwind(short spots) and I am was focusing on downwind (long spots). I have stated a couple times that brakes will not work if you are into a wind that is too strong. I can tell you that I have used half brakes to get back from a short spot...but only because the winds were low enough. I have also been short and used front risers a few times...I did not find them useful in getting back to the airport, but they were good at building speed so i had forward drive on landing. I find them too exhausting on my Sabre 210. I have a HUGE open area to choose a suitable off field landing, i don't fight strong winds any more...i'm ok with landing off the airport. More importantly, i try not to exit the plane if i'm too far down wind. I'm done with this thread unless someone else has a comment or question about warping the canopy...but i think that is pretty well done too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #29 May 21, 2005 Hi! had read this thread and was interested "what would happen if..." so here one who just tryed your idea Result: Smothly pulled both risers at the same time on about 15-20 cm (didn't looked on canopy and didn't played with this nuch time because of traffic) - almost nothing happendcanopy flying pretty stablebe only came to "tilting" few times but it's was easy to fix with risers... didn't noticed significant increasing of descent rate and decreasing of forward speed wasn't huge too (possible i didn't noticed it because of downwind) As I said didn't pulled risers hard and for a long time because of traffic (and because I did it very first time). Will try it harded/longer (and possible with ither canopy) next time Canopy - Spectre 170 loaded at 1.35 Anyone else?Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites