caspar 0 #1 May 16, 2005 just started learning to the risers...was wondering what would happen if you pulled the front right riser and back left riser at the same time. asked the guys in my club and they didnt know. not something i want to try as i have no idea what woud happen...... bit of a pointless question but i have to ask! "When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
achowe 0 #2 May 16, 2005 try it up high and see ------------------------------------------------- Woooaaaaaa!!! Woooaaaa!!! I'm gettin' off it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #3 May 16, 2005 Quotetry it up high and see preface this with: start with small inputs (just my 0.02 cents...)Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caspar 0 #4 May 16, 2005 thats what a guy in my club said and laughed!!!.....think he wanted me to find out for him! think i 'll pass thanks!!! "When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #5 May 16, 2005 When you try it up high, let us know what happens... I put money on a "buffeting" "shaky" effect with a little turn... Just a guess out of the blue. Have you done a full altitude hop-n-pop yet? I did another one this weekend and had so much fun doing all sorts of things not recommended close to the ground... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #6 May 16, 2005 I'm sure I've heard crw dogs refer to that as 'hobbling' or something similar. Maybe ask in the crw forum. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MWGemini 0 #7 May 16, 2005 From what I've read/heard, it's called warping the canopy, and it is easier to do it with a front riser and opposite toggle, since toggles are easier to control. I've done it a few times, but not for very long. Seems to be intended for moving the canopy laterally and losing altitude. Ask someone more experienced than me, however. I know there was a thread on it in the CRW forum. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewGPM 0 #8 May 16, 2005 warping is correct... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=295253;search_string=warping;#295253 My CRW buddy told me about it while we were talking about a guy who used huge S turns on final approach to avoid over shooting the landing area. He really screwed some people...luckily there were no close calls. For any new person reading this, S turns on final approach really mess up the landing pattern...you essentially cut off everyone. I've done warped my canopy a few times, just to see what it did. It does seem ro help you bleed altitude. How much I can't really say. I can say that the canopy was back in full flight almost immediately after i release the risers. I won't do it very low yet, not until I learn more about how much altitude I'm losing when I do it. Certainly seems like a useful skill to have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #9 May 16, 2005 Quote...the canopy was back in full flight almost immediately after i release the risers. I won't do it very low yet, not until I learn more about how much altitude I'm losing when I do it. I was just about to respond to this saying "If it returns to full flight almost immediately after the inputs are ceased, then I'm less worried about altitude loss doing it down low as I would be about it's stability." Then I clicked the link you provided and it's to Wendy's post stating exactly: "Warping is very stable and I have no problem doing it low" That's funny. I'm going to have to give it a try next weekend... up high at first though My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #10 May 16, 2005 QuoteI've done warped my canopy a few times, just to see what it did. It does seem ro help you bleed altitude. Instead of doing something weird and asymmetric like that, why not just go deep in both brakes and let the canopy sink without much forward speed? It seems to me that this would be the best way to bleed altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewGPM 0 #11 May 16, 2005 Deep brakes will certainly sink the canopy. What I don't like about that is that you sink the canopy by taking energy out of the canopy to make it work. You're practically stalling the canopy to make that happen. When you go back to full flight the canopy surges in an effort to regain that energy. That surge is fun, but not something i like to use below 1500 feet. That's my choice, not something someone told me to use as a hard deck for that. If you're afraid of stalling the canopy you tend not to give enough brakes to get the desired result. You can end up in half breaks, which makes you cover MORE ground and lose less altitude. That's great for making it back from a long spot...the opposite of what we're trying to accomplish here. The best solution is react sooner, avoiding the need for this technique. But just in case you need the skill, it's nice to know how to do it safely. Learn how to fly your canopy. See shat does at high speed(front risers) and how it reacts at low speed(deep brakes). Learn how to make flat turn. Learn how to use half brakes and rear risers to help you get back from a long spot. Learn front riser input as a way to build horizontal air speed and bleed altitude. They are great if you find yourself under canopy in an unexpected increase in the winds. Learn warping and/or deep brake to help bleed altitude while minimizing forward movement. Would you buy a Ferrari and only drive on straight roads with 25MPH speed limits...heck no! You would find the curviest roads with the highest speed limit and go see what that bad ass car can do! You bought a canopy...and you use it every time to jump...seems to make sense that you might want to see what that baby can do! At the same time, you'll have to park that car, so you have to learn how it functions at slow speed too. Just to complete the comparison. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewGPM 0 #12 May 16, 2005 Wierd and assymetrical...how do you figure? If done correctly there is nothing assymentrical about it. The line symmetry runs diagonally from rear rise to opposite front riser. If it wasn't symmetrical, there would a turn, dive or something else going on. If done correctly you slide almost straight down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #13 May 16, 2005 one of the guys at my DZ accidentally did that (he thought he had both front risers) - he said that basically his canopy did a bowtie and it scared the shit out of him. he jumps a sub-100' canopy, so no idea how it would affect a large docile canopy. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #14 May 16, 2005 QuoteInstead of doing something weird and asymmetric like that, why not just go deep in both brakes and let the canopy sink without much forward speed? It seems to me that this would be the best way to bleed altitude. How deep? Going into 1/2 brakes in many wind conditions will cause you to glide further instead of sinking as many would think. This belief of sinking is a hold over from old canopy design and with F111 fabric. Modern canopies fly a bit differently then that. If you don't believe me, use the accuracy spot and play with it to see where the spot goes at different brake positions.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brothermuff65 0 #15 May 17, 2005 i can answer that from a base jumping point of view . i practice this a lot when i open and before you unlock the brakes .start a left turn with the left rear riser then add some right ftont and you cant believe how fast it turns its ungodly how fast and flat as it warps the canopy and turns real fast and flat i practice this a lot when skydiveing to get me used to makeing a really fast riser turn in case i need to , to avoid an object while base jumping get used to doing it both directions .try it some time its surpriseing . but remember to start with the rear riser first hope this helps answer your questiontill later have fun & love each other seeya mb65johnny gates Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #16 May 17, 2005 Quotewarping is correct... I've done warped my canopy a few times, just to see what it did. It does seem ro help you bleed altitude. How much I can't really say. I can say that the canopy was back in full flight almost immediately after i release the risers. I won't do it very low yet, not until I learn more about how much altitude I'm losing when I do it. Certainly seems like a useful skill to have. More than the amount of altitude lost, I would be concerned with the change in vertical speed... This sounds a LOT like putting an airplane into a slip: hard aileron in one direction, hard rudder in the opposite direction. In a Cessna, it's a FREAKY-DEAKY feeling! but it's very effective at dropping altitude quickly without an increase in airspeed. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #17 May 17, 2005 Would someone educate me about the difference between steering rear risers and steering front risers? Like, I've heard of steering with rear risers if something is wrong with toggles or you have two canopies out, but I've never heard of steering with front risers. Why would one do that, and what effect does it have?Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #18 May 17, 2005 QuoteWould someone educate me about the difference between steering rear risers and steering front risers? Like, I've heard of steering with rear risers if something is wrong with toggles or you have two canopies out, but I've never heard of steering with front risers. Why would one do that, and what effect does it have? ask a coach/instructor at your DZ about riser input, and what happens given a particular input... there are also several great books on canopy piloting. it will be much better to do that then to have people try and explain it here... as for the original question: I'll give it a try this weekend (up high of course) and see what happens... Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #19 May 17, 2005 QuoteQuoteInstead of doing something weird and asymmetric like that, why not just go deep in both brakes and let the canopy sink without much forward speed? It seems to me that this would be the best way to bleed altitude. How deep? Going into 1/2 brakes in many wind conditions will cause you to glide further instead of sinking as many would think. This belief of sinking is a hold over from old canopy design and with F111 fabric. Modern canopies fly a bit differently then that. If you don't believe me, use the accuracy spot and play with it to see where the spot goes at different brake positions. How deep you have to pull the brakes to sink the canopy depends upon the canopy. But it works on both my F111 canopy as well as my zero-porosity canopy. With the latter, it may not be so much "sink", but rather it reduces the forward speed considerably. And all the while you're "hovering" the canopy is still descending. So while it may not be "sink" like an F111, you're effectively accomplishing much the same thing with Z-P, just not as dramatically. I shoot accuracy with my Z-P canopy using this technique. Obviously, you have to beware of approaching the stall point, especially with smaller or eliptical canopies. And leave yourself altitude to let up the brakes and resume speed if you need it for a good flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #20 May 17, 2005 QuoteDeep brakes will certainly sink the canopy. What I don't like about that is that you sink the canopy by taking energy out of the canopy to make it work. You're practically stalling the canopy to make that happen. When you go back to full flight the canopy surges in an effort to regain that energy. That surge is fun, but not something i like to use below 1500 feet. That's my choice, not something someone told me to use as a hard deck for that. I have flown several hundred accuracy approaches with the starting point as half brakes. It works great. You do not get that surge if you let the toggles up slowly. QuoteYou can end up in half breaks, which makes you cover MORE ground and lose less altitude. That totally depends on the specific canopy design.....Most at half brakes into the wind will slow your forward speed and allow you to cover less ground."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewGPM 0 #21 May 17, 2005 "at half brakes into the wind will slow your forward speed and allow you to cover less ground. " Just about all the canopy coach i've heard tells people to use half brakes to get back from a long spot. Yes, you lose a little forward speed, but you lose almost all of your vertical speed. You're not going forward as fast, but you're not losing altitude either. The only time half brakes doesn't work is when the winds are too high. Since you lose some forward speed, it will take less wind speed to stop your forward movement. I've only heard of that happening once or twice. In those cases, you start looking for alternate landing areas immediately. I use half brakes or rear riser on almost every jump. I love them...and i'm pretty good at it. Like i said, unless the winds are high, half brakes will get you back from a long spot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 35 #22 May 17, 2005 Quote"at half brakes into the wind will slow your forward speed and allow you to cover less ground. " Just about all the canopy coach i've heard tells people to use half brakes to get back from a long spot. Yes, you lose a little forward speed, but you lose almost all of your vertical speed. You're not going forward as fast, but you're not losing altitude either. The only time half brakes doesn't work is when the winds are too high. Since you lose some forward speed, it will take less wind speed to stop your forward movement. I've only heard of that happening once or twice. In those cases, you start looking for alternate landing areas immediately. I use half brakes or rear riser on almost every jump. I love them...and i'm pretty good at it. Like i said, unless the winds are high, half brakes will get you back from a long spot. I would think that holding rear risers down an inch or two would get you further without losing so much altitude..."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brothermuff65 0 #23 May 18, 2005 thats easy useing front risers tends to dive more and rear risers tend to turn flat and not lose much altitude .till later have fun & love each other seeya mb65johnny gates Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewGPM 0 #24 May 18, 2005 QuoteI would think that holding rear risers down an inch or two would get you further without losing so much altitude... Using rear risers used to be my preferred method for long spots. After getting some coaching, it appears that using half brakes is a better technique. Both work very well. I haven't noticed much of a difference between them, as far as performance goes. What I do notice is that half brakes is much easier to hold on to. Rear riser can be a bitch if you have to hold them for a long time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #25 May 18, 2005 QuoteJust about all the canopy coach i've heard tells people to use half brakes to get back from a long spot That depends on what canopy and even more importanty if you are up wind or down wind. From PD: Quote3. What about a headwind on a long spot? If you have a headwind, the special point that doesn't move will be quite close to you. If you need to fly past this point to get to a safe landing area, you will probably need to use front risers. QuoteYou're not going forward as fast, but you're not losing altitude either. What good is not loosing altitude if you are not going forward? If you are upwind brakes can work since while you do arrest your decent rate you spend more time aloft and the wind at your back can push you longer. But into the wind half brakes will kill your forward speed...And that does no good if you are long."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
