DeNReN 0 #1 April 5, 2004 As a student at a smaller DZ with only F111 skybarges (mostly Manta 288's) avaible to rent....transition to smaller ZP canopies can be difficult compared to larger DZ's.....beg to borrow is the norm...and finding a logical canopy size with a container to fit is near impossible. Here's my situation.....33 jumps,32 stand up landings,decient canopy control on the 288 Mantas,160lbs.....and a huge desire to buy my own rig and get out of the student rigs. I arranged to borrow a Triathlon 190 and was cleared by the S&TA and DZO to try it last year under strict rules/instructions...however.."shit happens" and the season was cut short before I had the chance to jump the 190.......this leaves me here...7 months later with the season about to restart and several jumps on the 288 Manta's before I can even consider asking to try the 190. Most of the advise on checklists and threads dont seem to directly address concerns students at smaller DZ's would have transitioning from F111 to ZP canopies without the logical progressive "down sizing" rigs avaible. I am hoping for useful advice/tips...maybe a modified version of Billvons downsizing list for students in my situation. ie:I perform a full flare on landing....its not overly fast but its not slow either....would staging my flare somewhat be safe and help in getting ready to switch to a ZP canopy? BTW: I just spent well over 2 hours typing a much better post only to loose it when spell checking....this is a pissed off version of the same post written in 5 mins Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #2 April 5, 2004 even though your wingload would be very light, it's still a big step in canopy sizes. I think you would probably be OK, but I'm sure most experienced jumpers and instructors would tell you to make an effort to step down at a more moderate pace. You have to take into account your level of uncurrency, and the fact that you have very little canopy experience. If there are not canopies available at your DZ, maybe you should call around and see who may be able to send you a demo in a larger size. Maybe it's time for a trip to a larger DZ.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #3 April 5, 2004 I've recently downsized from a 210 F111 to smaller zp sizes. The F111 was my first canopy and great for me to learn on. That canopy required a full flare. The zp canopies I've been jumping lately require staged flares. If I read your question correctly, I would NOT recommend doing a staged flare on your F111 to practice landing zp. I would continue to land your F111 in the manner which works on that canopy.. I dont really see how staging a flare on F111 and crash landing will help you land a totally different canopy. I had no problem feeling out the staged flare on zp canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #4 April 5, 2004 Just be careful. Take it from me, I put about 200 jumps on an Old Ragged out CReW (f-111) canopy before going to my new Sabre2. You'll have to relearn a lot of things, and your flair technique is going to need some updating. Consult your local Instructors and DZ staff, they know you and the level you are at..=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #5 April 5, 2004 Put at least two jumps this season on what you know before you try the Triathelon. This will allow you to concentrate more fully on flying the canopy during your preparation and in flight concentration/relaxation phase.I think this is a really good canopy for you to try next given your location. Do a hop and pop from five or six if you can. Have fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #6 April 6, 2004 When making a transition that is fairly major, one way to make things easier is to pick & choose one's wind conditions. Don't jump in low winds; wait until the winds are moderately strong. It's a simple concept that people must use, but I haven't personally heard it mentioned in all the many discussions about downsizing & wing loading. Perhaps someone is concerned that a newbie will overdo it and jump in very strong, gusting winds? The difference between a no step landing and having to 'run it out' can easily be created by common changes in wind strength. Off the top of my head, wind can easily be the equivalent of a couple sizes difference in canopy. Of course the flight dynamics of a small canopy will still be different. (My first jump on anything other than student canopies of 288 or 249 ft. sq. was a 172 ft sq Firelite. Sure it was scary in the air how fast it responded to small toggle inputs, but the landing was an anticlimactic no-stepper because of the 20 mph wind.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #7 April 6, 2004 >Perhaps someone is concerned that a newbie will overdo it and jump > in very strong, gusting winds? Or they will make an error and land downwind, in which case they will be going three times faster than they've ever gone before. >(My first jump on anything other than student canopies of 288 or 249 > ft. sq. was a 172 ft sq Firelite. Sure it was scary in the air how fast it > responded to small toggle inputs, but the landing was an > anticlimactic no-stepper because of the 20 mph wind.) I think it's a mistake to make a huge jump in canopy size and then jump in winds that would ground most students. That's two new (and dangerous) things to deal with on one jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #8 April 6, 2004 Stats/History/preface: 55yrs/200 lbs... 300 jumps; all f-111, mostly Cruiselite... 12 years out of sport..& return last October... After recurrency training, a couple of jumps under 288' Mantas, (& resolving corrective vision issues)... I transitioned to my new 5.0 Triathlon 190... [This number (5.0) does have significance for you..primarily because it has the 4.0 line mod. Whatever vintage Tri you jump..will flare a bit faster (& better) with what is sometimes called the 'mod 4 lineset'. (Same animal) I advise determining 1st] -------------------------------------------------------- Billvon's list is excellent...some of what's in it you will find below...perhaps he will comment or you could PM. I AM NOT AN INSTRUCTOR, and there is no substitute for close communication with yours. ----------------------------------------------------------- That said, the following are my; experiences (85%) what I should have done (15%) Jump solo @ 9k... Toss @ 6k... Open about 5k... Check (traffic) & canopy..unstow toggles..turn into wind..check penetration..flare...let it fly... Full flare..hold..hold..hold...(Stall check) 360 left..flare..360 right..flare..yesss!... 180 turn downwind, 180 braked turn, let fly, flare... Again in opposite direction... Check penetration & altitude............................. get set up in pattern... Because of faster speed becoming apparent now..make final turn from 1/2 brakes..let it fly... ------------------------------------------------------- If you use a full flare..you will find the zp Tri, if it has mod 4 lines, flares comparably FAST.. this in combination with faster landing speeds will tend to produce a HIGH FLARE, so be ready with your best PLF, and ABOVE ALL - DO NOT LET UP ON YOUR TOGGLES. -------------------------------------------------------- If you are considering a staged flare, consult your instructor. (I have found differing opinions here... and there are cautions also) Best Lu7k, D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #9 April 9, 2004 Thank You to all for your responces. towerrat Going from a 288 f111 canopy to a 190 zp canopy is a big step in canopy size...stepping down at a more moderate pace would be ideal and I will make every attempt to find and borrow a more suitable canopy/rig for my 1st non 288 manta jump. chaoskitty "I had no problem feeling out the staged flare on zp canopies. " TY thats is useful info. Unstable I plan on being very careful about the transition and as always my instructors and/or S&TA will be consulted before trying anything new (well almost) Andrewwhyte I will prob put 5 or 6 jumps on the manta288 before I start looking to beg/borrow a rig to try....Hopefully if a larger canopy is still not avaible to me the Tri 190 will still be there to borrow....I have been told that they are a good transitional canopy....I suggested to my S&TA last Sept. to start with a hop and pop....he thought it would be better going out at 10k...staying on heading doing practice touches and pulling at 6k(DZ student rigs are belly strap mounted throwouts...the Tri is a BOC) pchapman In my limited experiance I have had moderate wind no step landings and none to low wind run it out landings....you make a good point...my 1st 190 zp landing would prob be easier in moderate winds compared to a no wind situation. billvon I realize your responce is to pchapman but I can assure you that I will not land downwind on my 1st non f111 jump...and that I will not be jumping it...nor the 288 manta in 20 mph winds...however pchapman made a excellent point which I havent seen addressed before in this forum(yes I am semi new) and it seems to be a valid point...and I have seen students land in moderate and no wind conditions...(short story...I brought a group to do the FJC...most did there 1st jump in moderate wind...4 stood up the landing...3 did a second jump in a no wind condition the same day...all 3 face planted..gently....they were not expecting the increased forward speed of the canopy on landing)...I hear what you are saying about jumping in winds that are close to the canopies forward speed and have already not jumped several times because of winds when I was allowed to(sitting under canopy facing into the wind is just not fun) but using a moderate wind to aid in landing a canopy that is new to a jumper seems to be revelant to this thread and my question. cruzlite your experiances reflect very closly what I was instructed to do last Sept. as I was preparing for my 1st non student gear jump....you just forgot the lets see how a front riser dive works on this canopy compared to the manta part...kidding...the idea behind the jump that never happened was to familarize myself with the new canopy and set up landing way in advance under radio instruction from my S&TA...I will prepare for my best PLF ever but hopefully with guidance from my instructors and some luck I will stand it up. Again a big TY to all that responded to this thread...however....my question as to how to prepare under a manta288 f111 canopy for transition to a more heavly loaded zp canopy has not really been answered...maybe there are no real answers to the question yet.... With the weather looking better and better here jump season is quickly approachingPS: as stated in a previous thread....getting demo rigs sent to Canada does not seem to be a option...as far as checking out larger DZ's south of the boarder...it is in the plans...but I do not intend on going to a larger DZ without a A lic or experiance on a non student canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
