Downsizing - am i the only one?

[nate_1979 9]

Sorry, not trying to whine I've come to accept the bouncing.. But I have been told by many that I should downsize a little and it should help with that aspect of the jump, .. I just wanted to hear what people think of this aspect of being "underloaded" ... Honestly if it wasnt for that (and that a 190 will fit my rig much easier) I probably wouldnt even consider downsizing, I feel that I can downsize and be safe, but really have no desire to fly in at mach 2. I just feel that I may actually be safer on a 190 due to things such as turbulence (which is what I feel was a major factor when I broke some teeth on one landing at Perris). As far as the end cells, yea it's annoying but it doesnt bother me *that* much, and I might just find a way to fix that as I work on my perfect pack job

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[nate_1979 9]

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Nate,
Is Skydive SD experiencing the same kind of wind/turbulences that Perris does in summer?

No, I dont think its as bad at SSD, however it does pick up a bit..

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you have any doubt, asking people who just landed is also a good idea.

So far I'm getting a lot of "seemed normal" type responses when I ask others on the same load as me.

[sorry to cause so much thread drift, but it's been good so far. I asking the same question as Nate, I think]

[skybytch 273]

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But how do you accurately make that call?

For turbulence, watch landings. Pay special attention to canopies like yours that are loaded like you do. If you see them doing the "accordion thing" on final that's a good clue that the air is turbulent. You can also ask others who fly the same type of canopy/loading that you do if it's bumpy or not.

Feel free to find me at Davis sometime and we'll watch some landings together; I'll be happy to show you what I mean by the "accordion thing."

[nate_1979 9]

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Feel free to find me at Davis sometime and we'll watch some landings together; I'll be happy to show you what I mean by the "accordion thing."

I'll take you up on that when I go there for the boogie.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[genoyamamoto 0]

ahh ok. gotcha

Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me
Feel the hate...
Photos here

[Belgian_Skygirl 0]

Well, I am downloading at this moment. I don't feel comfortable under the huges canopies as I get blown away backwards while landing when is is a bit windy... or I don't get down and hang there... waiting to move on... I feel comfortable under a smaller canopy. I am downsizing very gradually and I think I will have a pauze at a 150 sq. ft... and than go to a 135. For a perfect wingload, I could go smaller, but small canopies react different...

A too big canopy can be dangerous as well... so... I will downsize but as I have a careful character, I will do it gradually and the way I feel comfortable... So if I get stuck on a 150 and do not whish to downsize further... I won't let me push.

BTW: Now I take a 170 sq. feet and... It doesn't feel different than a 210 for me... the instructors told me I could take a 150... but as I don't feel 100% comfortable yet, I will however do 5 extra jumps with the 170 before downsizing a bit more.

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No dive, like skydive... wanna bet on it?

[Frenchy68 0]

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For a perfect wingload, I could go smaller...

Which is...?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[RossDagley 0]

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the canopy is a method of delivering me to the ground safely and not a lot more.

Then you're ignoring 1/2 of skydiving.

Granted I am at the moment! I know there are many avenues of skydiving to explore. Time will tell as always what path I take. Once I'm off student status, I guess I'll have more time to 'play'!

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Am I in the minority for having no desire whatsoever to rush downsizing? What IS the rush?

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I just bought this one - two sizes smaller ...

am i the only one that sees a contradiction here?

I think you're misreading what I wrote. I just bought a new main. If I go two main sizes smaller, I'd need a new container. IE, my 190 fits in my icon I6, as would a 175. If I dropped below a 175, I'd need an I5. I'm in no rush to require a new container when I've just shelled for a brand new one.

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I honestly dont see it. Some desire to 'push the envelope'? Increasing the odds of killing myself isn't 'cool' in my book, its just plain dumb.

So why'd you downsize from your monster student main?
Welcome to the "pushthenvelopetryingtokillmyselfisn'tcooljustplaindumb" club.

Huh? I'll be completing my AFF at Deland next week. (because of some other factors) Pine is suggesting I jump my new rig right from the off rather than their student gear. No monster student main involved at all. Although it may turn out I jump their 210 when we decide, but that means modding their gear. Pine is yet to decide.

[Ron 10]

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I’m downsizing not to go faster, but I’ve been told that a lightly loaded canopy can be just as dangerous, especially in windy conditions, as a too heavily loaded one can be.

Find new people to listen to.

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I've been told that a lightly loaded canopy could be more susceptible to collapse, even in light winds.

Not true.

Turbulence effects everything from a kids balloon to a 747. Bigger heavier things get effected less, but that does not mean a higher WL is safer. In fact a higher WL will mean faster and faster means that when shit does hit the fan it gives you less time to react and it hurts more if you mess up.

If its turbulent...don't jump.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Wendy - on 3 of these jumps in question, there was 0 wind on the ground. The one on Saturday was well under 10. And no one else seemed bothered. So points to: it's the canopy, the w/l, or me getting a new baseline for 'normal.'

If there is zero wind it cannot be wind turbulance.

You most likely are hitting convection turbulance from heat rising. It will happen anytime you pass over a different surface...Say from Grass to sand, or asphalt. It may also not be dirrectly over the object...It can move with any winds.

You may also be flying in the wake turbulance from other canopies. Wake turbulance comes from the canopy and is a by product of lift being generated. It is NOT always above a canopy, or behind it. It also drifts with wind and sinks naturally.

I have had a Cessna roll almost 60 degrees when I hit some wake turbulance from a heavy. I was 2 min after (Which is considered a safe time), and ATC cleared me to land.

With all this, it could be the canopy is out of trim.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Orange1 0]

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the canopy is a method of delivering me to the ground safely and not a lot more.

Then you're ignoring 1/2 of skydiving.

One of the things I love about skydiving is the fact that there are two very different aspects to it - the only thing in common really is that you're in the air. And while I'm only just beginning to learn what fun it is to fly a canopy, I must say I just love that awesome stillness and peace you get up high under canopy. Did you ever notice the air smells different up there?

Re the downsizing, I had a long chat to my instructor the other day, who (after earlier questions prompted by this forum on how different size canopies fly differently at the same wingloading) urged me not to be "too conservative" and would like to see me at 1:1 (for me that's a 150, even then I'd be slightly under) within 30 jumps or so. We do jump a DZ where it can be quite windy and where the wind can come up unexpectedly sometimes, though - last weekend there was almost no wind, and then on one jump at around 1200' I suddenly hit some turbulence, but it definitely wasn't a turbulent day!

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I'm in no rush to require a new container when I've just shelled for a brand new one.

This being why most people recommend buying 2nd hand gear to start off with?

Bottom line, again, get opinions here, but the final say should be informed by the instructors who know you and how you jump.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[genoyamamoto 0]

Hey man I misread your post sorry dude.

Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me
Feel the hate...
Photos here

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Bottom line, again, get opinions here, but the final say should be informed by the instructors who know you and how you jump.

Agreed, but I've seen those instructors give bad advice too.

Bottom line is that YOU, as an adult, need to be a shit filter. Take in all the info you can and try to make an INFORMED decision because you believe it is right for you. Not because someone told you to do it.

No one is ever exempt from giving bad advice.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[davelepka 4]

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the canopy is a method of delivering me to the ground safely and not a lot more.

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Then you're ignoring 1/2 of skydiving.

It's more than half of skydiving. Many have pointed out that canopies are 'fun' and that you can have fun at any size. Ignoring the fun factor, keep in mind that your canopy is your vehichle to a safe landing.

Many serious incidents have been the result of jumpers flying canopies at a low WL, with intentions of a safe, slow landing, when the circumsatnces of thier jump conspired against them. Changing weather conditions, and/or bad spots have left jumpers in a postion they were not prepared for. Obsatcle strikes, and fixating on getting into the wind have been the downfall of many consrevative jumpers.

Don't confuse the need to donwsize and/or swoop with the need to pay attention to your canopy, it's flight characteristics, and your decision making process under canopy. You will be well served to review your outlook on canopy filght, and it's level of importance in your skydiving.

[RossDagley 0]

I place high value on your opinions (specifically with regard to wing loading) after reading several of your previous (and lengthy!) posts.

By coincidence, I've emailed Scott Miller today asking some questions about his canopy control course, and where coming right off AFF right onto one of his courses is appropiate and so forth.

My safety is my absolute number one concern. If I dont feel comfortable, or even if I'm unsure about ANY circumstance, I will not be getting out the door.

Maybe right now I'm just nice and neive. I dont WANT to go faster/harder. I can see real and quantifiable risks in inreasing my wingloading at a low level of experience - you've only got to read the incidents forum for that - I guess the original post was asking why other people dont always see it the same way.

[Candy 0]

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Bottom line is that YOU, as an adult, need to be a shit filter. Take in all the info you can and try to make an INFORMED decision because you believe it is right for you. Not because someone told you to do it.

Best advice yet!

Candy

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[jtval 0]

If it makes you feel better,
I was on my sabre 210 for well over 300 jumps. it was loaded lightly. I downsized to a sabre 170 somewhere after(my 300th jump). i now have 580 jumps and I am still on the sabre170.

I am looking to get a new canopy now but it's not my priority. nothing is wrong with my main, I just want a "NEW" one.at this point jumping a 150 sabre 2 or cobalt is not a big deal to me but its not pushing the enevelope at this point in time, for me. it would be loaded at about 1:4

the thing that I like about the slow progression is I have never hurt myself on landing.
I'm just not comfortable doing hook turns,anyway.

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[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Am I in the minority for having no desire whatsoever to rush downsizing?

At 13 jumps my new Turbo-Z 205 (under 1 pound/square foot) was frighteningly fast compared to the 295 Skymaster and 288 Manta I jumped as a student.

Before I had 100 jumps I tried out a 170 which was much more fun and ended up replacing it with a 155 that was even better. In hindsight that was not a good idea.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If there is zero wind it cannot be wind turbulance.

You most likely are hitting convection turbulance from heat rising. It will happen anytime you pass over a different surface...Say from Grass to sand, or asphalt. It may also not be dirrectly over the object...It can move with any winds.

Laughing a little - weren't you complaining about the nitpicking over your phrase 'accidental night dive.' End result is turbulence, right!? There could be wind layers at 3000 that aren't present lower - can you have wind turbulence at altitude? But more likely it is rising and sinking air.

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With all this, it could be the canopy is out of trim.

Is that part of a main inspection, or do I need to specifically ask for it?

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Is that part of a main inspection, or do I need to specifically ask for it?

I don't know your rigger, but I've always had to specifically ask for it.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 10]

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Laughing a little - weren't you complaining about the nitpicking over your phrase 'accidental night dive.' End result is turbulence, right!? There could be wind layers at 3000 that aren't present lower - can you have wind turbulence at altitude? But more likely it is rising and sinking air.

Turbulance requires some change in the air. Most times it is due to an object. It can be caused by other things, but then its usually convection, a cloud, ect.

If there is zero wind on the ground....Chances are there is not a gale force wind at 3 grand.

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Is that part of a main inspection, or do I need to specifically ask for it?

It is part of a main inspection....But it can't hurt to ask for it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DJL 235]

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Then you're ignoring 1/2 of skydiving.

Davelepka's post is exactly what I was referring to when I said this. I'm not saying that someone should go and swoop, I'm saying that there is ALOT to learn about a canopy and you'd better go and learn it before you're out of options and need to know it.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher