NickDG 23
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jtval 0
thats a wierd question to ask Dave. other then being curious about how others see it I am suprised you posted this. it IS a great question but wonder if you could answer it too.
My opinion is that there is NO fast way to determine who is better; the old guy or the new fast burner.
I could list scenerios and hypotheticals all day but in reality if you put the two in mulitple real world situations they may not be any good at all.
the
I've seen newer jumpers with NO KNOWLEDGE of the sport but that is expected, b/c they are new. It is our turn to teach them and show them how to find the information I've seen jumpers with lots of numbers who have little knowledge of the sport. that is dangerous because most people figure "they've been around they know whats going on."
its all about how strong the addiction is. there may be a newer jumper out there who reads every iota he finds about skydiving and educates himself about the sport. his KNOWLEDGE may be more important than someones EXPERIENCE.
theres a post for you. KNOWLEDGE VS EXPERIENCE?
My opinion is that there is NO fast way to determine who is better; the old guy or the new fast burner.
I could list scenerios and hypotheticals all day but in reality if you put the two in mulitple real world situations they may not be any good at all.
the
(<--get it?) truth is that NUMBERS are worthless. its just a case by case basis.Quoteplane
I've seen newer jumpers with NO KNOWLEDGE of the sport but that is expected, b/c they are new. It is our turn to teach them and show them how to find the information I've seen jumpers with lots of numbers who have little knowledge of the sport. that is dangerous because most people figure "they've been around they know whats going on."
its all about how strong the addiction is. there may be a newer jumper out there who reads every iota he finds about skydiving and educates himself about the sport. his KNOWLEDGE may be more important than someones EXPERIENCE.
theres a post for you. KNOWLEDGE VS EXPERIENCE?
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Quotetheres a post for you. KNOWLEDGE VS EXPERIENCE?
It takes both, salted with attitude, to develop JUDGMENT.
The issue is not experience or knowledge or any one attribute, individually, but the way they all combine to hone one's ability to evaluate and act on the various situations one encounters.
I don't care how many jumps you have or how much you have studied, if you can't put it all together in a way that keeps you and those around you intact and breathing, everything you know and do is worthless.
rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb
For anything other than good RW skills, I'd pick the guy with 10 years and 1000 jumps, especially if the jumps were made at both large and small DZs. Those small Cessna DZs teach you a couple of things I feel you can miss out on at a big turbine DZ: the ability to spot and the knowledge of weight and balance and (most likely) more jumps from low altitude. It's also a lot tougher launching a good 4-way from a Cessna than a Super Otter or Caravan. I tend to think you pick up a lot of knowledge from being on the ground with jumpers, packing and BSing, for 10 years, also. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'd say that generally someone with 10 years in the sport is going to be more "experienced" but likely not as good at "high-performance" RW, swooping, freeflying, etc.
QuoteTime means more than jumps.
Absolute rubbish.
If you meant "Experience means more than jumps" then I would agree with you.
Someone who takes >10 years to get to 1,000 jumps may not be as experienced as someone who takes 3-4 yet asks the right questions and assimilates as much information as he/she can.
What about experience gained in other pastimes, e.g. paragliding? I'm sure that a paraglider pilot has seen more injuries/fatalities than your average skydiver!
I just think that skydivers can be a little narrow-minded on this subject...
--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13
10 years. Because with years, comes maturity.
No, really. Stop laughing. Skydivers who have been skydivers for 10 years really do mature. A 10-year jumper may be doing stupid shit today, but he was doing really stupid shit 10 years ago.
In a world full of people, only some want to fly... isn't that crazy! --Seal
No, really. Stop laughing. Skydivers who have been skydivers for 10 years really do mature. A 10-year jumper may be doing stupid shit today, but he was doing really stupid shit 10 years ago.
In a world full of people, only some want to fly... isn't that crazy! --Seal
I don't care how many jumps you have or how much you have studied, if you can't put it all together in a way that keeps you and those around you intact and breathing, everything you know and do is worthless.
***
Well stated!
Everyone learns things differently...and relates to the information differently.
I've seen guys will 5000 jumps and 20 years in...'Learn' from a newbie,
because the newbie isn't looking at things the
'same old way'.
I tend to think that I can learn something from EVERYONE...
...Even if's it's just 'learning', that a particular person is full of BS and is a hazard to all.
That being said...there is something to be said about time in the sport..
"There's old ones and bold ones...no old bold ones!"
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
***
Well stated!
Everyone learns things differently...and relates to the information differently.
I've seen guys will 5000 jumps and 20 years in...'Learn' from a newbie,
because the newbie isn't looking at things the
'same old way'.
I tend to think that I can learn something from EVERYONE...
...Even if's it's just 'learning', that a particular person is full of BS and is a hazard to all.
That being said...there is something to be said about time in the sport..
"There's old ones and bold ones...no old bold ones!"
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
AMax 0
First of all, how do you define experience?
IMHO, “I have been around for a long time” and “I have seen a lot” does not immediately translate into ability to handle the difficult situation. One of the most important safety factors in skydiving is currency and a person who makes 500 jumps a year is definitely more current than a person who makes a 100. I am not trying to say that someone with 1K jumps made over two year period is more experienced, just making a point that being extremely current is good for safety.
There is another issue. When someone starts jumping a lot right after finishing AFF and knocks hundreds of jumps every year, this often means that the person really wants to LEARN. I do not agree with “he only does 4-way, therefore his experience is very narrow” opinion because those who focus and try to be good in one discipline, usually appreciate the fact that becoming good in other disciplines also takes a lot of effort. In other words, it is unlikely that these people will try to pull/do something they are not really qualified for.
On the other hand, there are quite a few people out there who have been around for years but haven’t really learned a lot about tracking well, waiving off before pitching the pilot chute and behaving in busy canopy traffic.
IMHO, “I have been around for a long time” and “I have seen a lot” does not immediately translate into ability to handle the difficult situation. One of the most important safety factors in skydiving is currency and a person who makes 500 jumps a year is definitely more current than a person who makes a 100. I am not trying to say that someone with 1K jumps made over two year period is more experienced, just making a point that being extremely current is good for safety.
There is another issue. When someone starts jumping a lot right after finishing AFF and knocks hundreds of jumps every year, this often means that the person really wants to LEARN. I do not agree with “he only does 4-way, therefore his experience is very narrow” opinion because those who focus and try to be good in one discipline, usually appreciate the fact that becoming good in other disciplines also takes a lot of effort. In other words, it is unlikely that these people will try to pull/do something they are not really qualified for.
On the other hand, there are quite a few people out there who have been around for years but haven’t really learned a lot about tracking well, waiving off before pitching the pilot chute and behaving in busy canopy traffic.
Quotejust making a point that being extremely current is good for safety.
Maybe it is. Or maybe it leads to a certain sense of complacency--"it's just another skydive"--which then leads to some stupid, senseless mistake, that leaves the survivors shaking their heads saying, "WTF?"
I don't know what to say. You may be right, but every friend of mine who has died these past ten years has been quite current, thank you very much. And in the absence of the last few year's issues of Parachutist, my personal statistics say that currency doesn't seem to make a whole helluva lot of difference.
rl
That's a tricky one, though.
Uncurrent jumpers, by definition, don't jump very much. That leaves them turning up less frequently in incident reports, though an individual uncurrent jumper may be more likely to have an accident.
Uncurrent jumpers, by definition, don't jump very much. That leaves them turning up less frequently in incident reports, though an individual uncurrent jumper may be more likely to have an accident.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan
"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan
"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?
Okay, I think what we have seen here is there are a LOT more varibles besides #s and time in sport. A guy with 1000 hop n pops so he can swoop is less experienced that someone with less #s and less time in sport that has been doing "tall falls" that include RW, freefly,video or another disciplines such as being an instructor.
Simply put, you never know where a person is if you simply go by #s and or time in sport alone.
Simply put, you never know where a person is if you simply go by #s and or time in sport alone.
Quote...The first time they went anywhere else to jump (to a different state) three of the four had Cypres fires on a low altitude RW jump when none of them knew the difference between MSL and AGL . . .
I don't understand that, could you please elaborate (pm if necessary).
New day, reset Cypres - my Cypres detects ground level when I turn it on. (You know...this is a good time to go dig out my Cypres documentation and re-check everything about it - thanks for the knock on the head.)
Every jump, reset altimeter to zero on the ground.
I understand the recent incident where a jumper turned on her Cypres at home at near MSL and then drove to the DZ which was some height above MSL and the AAD did not fire when needed.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Ron 10
The guy with 10 years knows more.
The guy with two might have more skill.
I knew a guy that was going to buy a new canopy. He had been jumping about a year and was jumping a lot...He thought it was a great deal..It was a NOVA.
You can't call him experienced, even though he was skilled.
The guy with two might have more skill.
I knew a guy that was going to buy a new canopy. He had been jumping about a year and was jumping a lot...He thought it was a great deal..It was a NOVA.
You can't call him experienced, even though he was skilled.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Reginald 0
QuoteThe guy with 10 years knows more.
The guy with two might have more skill.
Nicely said. I do believe currency is highly correlated with skill but you have to give credit to people that have been around a long time for "knowledge" or maybe more accurately "wisdom".
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP
riggerrob 643
Let's go for the simpler explanation.
Either they forgot to set their altimeters to local field elevation, or they reset them by referring to the pilot's altitmeter.
Either they forgot to set their altimeters to local field elevation, or they reset them by referring to the pilot's altitmeter.
JohnMitchell 16
Sounds like you're discussing my sig line.
It took me 7 years to get the first thousand. Lots of school, work and being an instructor (back when that meant standing on the ground, teaching the S/L hordes) and being half broke kept me from racking up too many jumps too fast.
I think everyone is right. It's a combination of many factors, time in, number of jumps, variety of experiences, and personality. Does a person listen, or do they just charge ahead, never heeding the advice of people who are trying to keep them alive? Are they a student of the sport, trying to learn all they can, or are they just worried about how well their new rig matches their new jumpsuit? I'm way past trying to be cool, now I'm just try to stay alive.
It took me 7 years to get the first thousand. Lots of school, work and being an instructor (back when that meant standing on the ground, teaching the S/L hordes) and being half broke kept me from racking up too many jumps too fast.
I think everyone is right. It's a combination of many factors, time in, number of jumps, variety of experiences, and personality. Does a person listen, or do they just charge ahead, never heeding the advice of people who are trying to keep them alive? Are they a student of the sport, trying to learn all they can, or are they just worried about how well their new rig matches their new jumpsuit? I'm way past trying to be cool, now I'm just try to stay alive.
The first time they went anywhere else to jump (to a different state) three of the four had Cypres fires on a low altitude RW jump when none of them knew the difference between MSL and AGL . . .
Time means more than jumps.
NickD
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