RSL or no?

[PhreeZone 20]

>And i sure don't wanna end up 500 feet above the ground with unsteerable reserve, because i'd have line twists.

Is it better to have a reserve with line twists or is it better to land with nothing out is the real question. One is survivable, the other is not.

Deploying on your back does not increase the time it takes to have the reserve work. Its all the same physics if you are belly to earth, back to earth or in a ball. The PC catches air, acts as an anchor as you fall away from it and the reserve is extracted from the freebag and opens.

If you think you can get stable in 1-2 seconds with low or no airspeed, have you done a balloon jump or a helicopter jump to experience no air to work with yet? Its a lot different then most people think it will be.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[kallend 2,120]

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I'm sure the reserve will deploy just fine in any position most of the time. though i have heard of spun up reserves. If i have any knowledge, it's easier to end up with twisted lines when deploying unstable, especialy under moderately loaded reserve.And i sure don't wanna end up 500 feet above the ground with unsteerable reserve, because i'd have line twists.

I've seen reserves deployed on back, and it took at least one or two more seconds before the reserve came out of the freebag. I think anyone experienced enough can get stable in 2 seconds, to safely open the reserve.

I understand your post and i agree and don't agree with you. Like it's been said, some like RSL some don't. I don't.

I don't consider myself experienced with the jump numbers i have at all. Knowledge is one thing, experience is something else. We're talking so it's theory and knowledge, and you need those to gain experience safely. But some people even if they have experience, doesn't mean they'll react better/safer than someone that has less experience. I, for example, wouldn't give my canopy for a test jump, to many people, that have more jumps (experience) then i have.

Just my opinion

A lot of people with more experience than you thought the same thing before they burned in with nothing out.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[grega 0]

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Is it better to have a reserve with line twists or is it better to land with nothing out is the real question. One is survivable, the other is not.

true

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Deploying on your back does not increase the time it takes to have the reserve work. Its all the same physics if you are belly to earth, back to earth or in a ball. The PC catches air, acts as an anchor as you fall away from it and the reserve is extracted from the freebag and opens.

Huh there's no point arguing. I should send you the video. Or you can try open the main canopy, pulling the handy, when rig is as it should when opening. then turn it around, and now pull the handy again, and don't let the rig to turn around while pulling. Don't tell me you used the same force to open the main both times.

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If you think you can get stable in 1-2 seconds with low or no airspeed, have you done a balloon jump or a helicopter jump to experience no air to work with yet? Its a lot different then most people think it will be.

Yes i did, but i was referring to high speed malfunctions. At slow speed malfunction you'd definitely need more time to get stable. But you are falling slower, so you have more time.

Ok to end up this conversation. if you're fighting the last inches of height you have left, it's better to have rsl, in all other circumstances where you have at least 1000 feet of height, it's not.
And if someone is not sure whether he'll remember to open the reserve before the ground, or trying to be stable all the way to the ground (if you're unstable at 300 feet, open the reserve and hope for the best, no matter what!), then IMHO that one isn't really up to skydiving

If i'm still wrong please explain.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[billbooth 10]

"The times, they are a'changin." I can remember, not to long ago, when almost all experienced jumpers said," AADs are for students. I wouldn't be caught dead with one of those contraptions in my rig!" Unfortunately, too many were caught dead without one. Now, you are considered crazy if you jump without an AAD. The main reason this change came about was that someone (Airtec) came out with the first really good AAD (the Cypres).

The same transformation is about to take place with RSLs because, with the Skyhook, the RSL has finally matured to the point where it has removed almost all of the arguments against itself, just like the AAD did 12 years ago with the introduction of the Cypres. And not a moment too soon. According to USPA records, 25 people have died in the last 10 years after breaking away and not pulling their reserves...and the new high performance canopies look like they will increase that number.

Here is a reprint of a piece I wrote a while ago about this very subject:

Current thinking among owners of highly loaded elliptical canopies is that because they might have a rapidly spinning malfunction, they don't want an RSL. And they may have a point when discussing conventional RSL's, which only pull the reserve pin after breakaway. Like mains, reserves are getting smaller and more high tech, and an unstable opening, even if it does not result in some sort of an entanglement, might yield unrecoverable line twists.

However, "getting stable" after breakaway from a high speed, spinning malfunction, might take a lot longer than you think, and you might not always have enough altitude to pull it off. So, in many peoples minds, there has been a trade off between altitude loss and stability to consider: RSL - Fast, but unstable...No RSL - slow but stable. But just how long will a non-RSL reserve deployment from a spinning breakaway take? And is your current emergency procedure the correct one for this situation?

Think about it. If you are jumping a high performance canopy, and your plan is to breakaway, and then "get stable" before pulling your reserve handle, your emergency procedure has to go something like this.

Step 1. Realize that the line twists are not going to come out, and that your canopy (which might seem otherwise "fully open") is not controllable. And because of the high speed nature of these malfunctions, and the hope that it might get better if you just "play with it" a little longer, you can easily eat up a 1,000 feet hoping to fix it, before you even make your decision to breakaway.

Step 2. Locate, grab, and pull your cutaway pillow. (Now remember, your plan is to "get stable" as quickly as possible before you pull your reserve handle. This means that you cannot grab, or for that matter, even look at your reserve handle until sometime after you have broken away, because you're spinning rapidly, and are going to need your eyes on the horizon, and both arms outstretched in order to get stable quickly, aren't you?

Step 3. Now finally, after getting stable, you must locate, grab, and pull your reserve handle. And God help you if you have a pud (instead of a "D" ring) for a reserve handle, which:
a. Like any reserve handle, isn't where it usually is, because your harness loosens up with the main container empty.
b. You can't see because of your full face helmet. (And why even look, because your pud is probably color coordinated anyway.)
c.You can't really feel, because your main lift webb and jumpsuit feel almost the same as your pud. (If you're wearing gloves, good luck.)

And please remember, you were just spinning rapidly, while possibly taking 3 or 4 "G"s, and might just be a tad dizzy, if not close to unconscious, and not really sure just what "stable" is anymore.

And let's not forget that 2-3 second pilot chute hesitation you will probably experience, because you are used to a hand deploy pilot chute system, and don't really know how to launch an internal, spring loaded pilot chute properly, (especially if you are wearing photographer's wings).

So how long do you think a spinning breakaway to an open reserve might take? The answer is, A lot longer than it takes to read the above procedures, and at 174 feet per second, perhaps the rest of your life. And don't look for you AAD to save you. It might not have time to re-arm after a low breakaway.

Also remember that this procedure virtually guarantees a terminal reserve opening, and because reserves are designed to open "right now", the chance of reserve canopy or bodily damage will be much higher than if you had opened at a lower velocity.

The point here is that if you don't use an RSL, you can easily eat up 1,500 to 2,000 feet to get your reserve open after experiencing a high speed spinning malfunction . And even if you do manage to get open by 500 feet, what are the chances that you'll be over an area where you can safely land that tiny little reserve that you've never jumped before? The spot was chosen for 2,500 feet, not 500 feet.

Luckily, there is a way out of this dilemma. The Skyhook RSL can give you a stable reserve opening from a spinning malfunction in under 100 feet. Fast and stable...no trade-off.

Ever open below two grand? Come on, be honest. Are you still sure you don't want an RSL?

I know I have included just about everything that can go wrong during a breakaway, and that not everything listed above will happen to everyone on every breakaway. But chances are, at least some will, and if you experience even half the above problems after a low breakaway, you're history.

[Nightingale 0]

stupid newbie question alert:


what's the difference between a regular RSL and a skyhook?

[sdgregory 0]

What?!!! You do not know the difference? What is wrong with you? Oh wait . . . niether do I?

[mjosparky 4]

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stupid newbie question alert:


what's the difference between a regular RSL and a skyhook?

There are no stupid newbie questions, only stupid responses to newbie questions.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 3,090]

>And i sure don't wanna end up 500 feet above the ground with
>unsteerable reserve, because i'd have line twists.

If you instead take 3 seconds to get stable from 500 feet you will impact the ground before your reserve opens. I think it's better to be at 500 feet under a reserve with line twist than impacting with a partially open reserve. That's when the RSL saves lives - when people cut away from a streamer at 600 feet and foolishly try to get stable before deploying their reserve.

>I've seen reserves deployed on back, and it took at least one or two
> more seconds before the reserve came out of the freebag. I think
> anyone experienced enough can get stable in 2 seconds, to safely
> open the reserve.

Then use an RSL, cut away, and get stable before the reserve is open. If you can't - well, at least you don't spend the rest of your life trying.

There are good reasons to use an RSL, and good reasons to not use them. I think "you have to get stable before you open your reserve" is one of the myths that have somehow sprung up around RSL's. You don't have to, and one manufacturer (Jump Shack) actually recommends that you are NOT stable belly-to-earth when you open your reserve. Head-high is a better way to deploy it, and that's generally the position your RSL opens your reserve in.

[billvon 3,090]

>what's the difference between a regular RSL and a skyhook?

An RSL causes the activation of the reserve by pulling the pin as the main risers leave. Once the pin is pulled there is no longer a direct connection between the main and the reserve system. The skyhook system does the same thing, but it also maintains a connection between the main and the reserve freebag, so that the "anchor" provided by the main parachute (which in many cases is partially inflated even after a cutaway) can speed deployment of the reserve. Note that it does not change how the reserve inflates once the reserve is clear of the freebag, but it does significantly speed up reserve openings by decreasing the time it takes for the reserve to clear the freebag.

(Feel free to correct that, Bill - I wanted to get a quick answer to Kris)

[champu 1]

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what's the difference between a regular RSL and a skyhook?

Relative Workshop's Skyhook Page You can read up on it there. I was particularly impressed with the demonstration video.

[Nightingale 0]

hmm... I'm liking this skyhook thing...

[chaoskitty 0]

This past weekend I had my first malfunction and cutaway, (yes, Beer, I know). Long story short, I pulled at 3,000, had line twists and a line over so I was spinning so violently it was practically impossible for me to pull the cutaway handle.. centrifugal force maybe? The line twists stopped and slowed the spinning down enough to where I could cut away, by then I was somewhere around 1,000 feet. I had my hand on the reserve handle when I realized that my reserve had already been deployed by my RSL. I was in the saddle at around 600 feet. Had I not had an RSL that might have been 400 feet. Its designed to work faster than me, and thats exactly what it did. I was not relying on it, because I certainly would have pulled my reserve, (or my cypres would have fired), but the RSL worked properly in this case. I was not anywhere close to stable when I cutaway, but my reserve opening was fine, and I landed on my feet.

For all you Incident forum types, It happened on jump 89, I'm jumping a pd210 wingloaded at .8, reserve is a tempo 170.
I just wanted to give my njasshole my personal experience with an RSL.

[Ron 10]

Im glad you are not dead.

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I pulled at 3,000, had line twists and a line over so I was spinning so violently it was practically impossible for me to pull the cutaway handle..

This REALLY bothers me to hear you say. You realize that if the line twists didn't stop you would not be writting this? I would not place the blame on centrifical force....It was probley either:

1. Your risers had crossed and held the yellow cables pinched...After the twists cleared it released the pinch. Check to see if you have cable gaurds which are plastic or metal inserts inside the risers.

2. You did not PEAL then pull your handle. And you finaly just yanked hard enough. Or you had a part of your harness jumpsuit in your hand as well.

I would check my risers...Get the inserts if you don't have them. then spend some time in a hanging harness working on the cutaway reserve drills.

Were you tought both hands on Cutaway/both on reserve? Or One hand for each handle?

As for being in the saddle at 600 feet...Check to see if your cypress did fire. It will alot of the time even after the pin has cleared the loop.

Glad you are here, and no you have an oh shit story to tell..

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[chaoskitty 0]

Thanks, Ron. I dont want to hijack this thread, but I'll answer your questions real quick.
It bothered me that I couldnt pull the cutaway handle (pad) as well.. trust me. Thanks for the insight, I really didnt know why I couldnt pull.. I'm not a weakling or anything.

EP.. I was trained to put my right hand on cutaway and left on reserve, pull right, then pull left. In this situation, I was pulling my cutaway pad with both hands. Once the line twists came out, I had no trouble with the cutaway pad.
I do not have cable guards, but I will discuss this with my rigger. I'm jumping a really OLD talon container that I'm about to replace anyway.
I checked the cypres, it did not fire. I had enough canopy over my head even with the line over, apparently. I agree that the cypres could have fired after I cut away, but in this case it was the RSL that deployed the reserve.

[champu 1]

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had line twists and a line over so I was spinning so violently it was practically impossible for me to pull the cutaway handle.. centrifugal force maybe?

small pet peeve of mine... when spinning you are experiencing a cetripetal force, or one directed towards the central axis.

According to this Pull Force Chart riser housings (metal with caps, and secured in the riser properly) should keep pull forces reasonable up til the point where you'd black out anyway and it wouldn't matter.

[mjosparky 4]

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small pet peeve of mine... when spinning you are experiencing a cetripetal force, or one directed towards the central axis.

Could you PM me and explain or start another thread.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[chaoskitty 0]

Ooookay.. its been a while since I took physics, but I'm glad you understood what I meant.

[happythoughts 0]

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I do not have cable guards, but I will discuss this with my rigger.

As usual, on a safety issue, I'm with Ron. Last month, I had a very experienced friend heading for the ground in a hard spiral. His cypres fired and released enough pressure off the container to allow him to cut away.

His wife and I were standing there watching him.

Hard housings can help. I definitely recommend that people get them.

[brettpobastad 0]

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OK RSL's have both saved and killed people.

They have saved more than they killed..But for me a saftey device that when properly used can kill you...Is not such a great saftey device.

Statistics say that the chances of a skydiver releasing his main parachute and then not deploying his reserve parachute (for whatever reason) are infinitly greater than the possibility of an RSL causing any sort of problem. I have never seen or heard of any instance where a properly installed RSL 'killed' anyone!

The choice of whether or not to have an RSL on your rig is a personal one. But make sure you have all the facts and understand the concept before you make that choice

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

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[Ron 10]

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I have never seen or heard of any instance where a properly installed RSL 'killed' anyone!

Look around on here, I put a post together that listed a few of them.

One was a racer RSL system that killed a guy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billbooth 10]

I can't think of an RSL with a Collins' Lanyard every causing anyone a problem, much less killing them. When you blame deaths on RSL's, please be specific that these were "old fashioned" RSL's.

[billvon 3,090]

>One was a racer RSL system that killed a guy.

And I can recall a KAP-10 fatality or two, but that's a bad reason to not use a cypres. The two sided Racer RSL's aren't like modern RSL's.

[Avion 0]

I just learned about a two sided Racer RSL issue. However even that is still covered by general RSL safety issues. I did a good bit of reading before I started jumping, and decided that for me as a beginner a RSL is a good thing. The Skyhook makes it a better thing. However, there are few situations where a RSL can work against you.

People doing CReW, want to make sure they fall clear of a wrap or entanglement before deploying a reserve. That, I see as the only valid reason to exit a plane without one or with one disconnected.

Speaking of disconnecting them. There are other times after exiting when they should be disconnected, and if you have one you should be aware of these times.

For example:

After any reserve deployment, including two out situations. This includes the Racer issue where the RSL is connected to both of the main's risers and could possibly entangle the reserve, when the main is cutaway, if the reserve has deployed through the mains risers.

Being dragged by high wind after landing. Pop the RSL before cutting away or you may get dragged again.

The same goes after landing on top of a building, You could be dragged off the roof by the reserve if it deploys after you cut away the main to avoid being dragged off the roof

There are additional times, where could reasonably disconnect one, ie a high reserve pull, but I will omit futher elaboration upon that, because it gets into preference areas

[EvilLurker 2]

If you're going to make a water landing it's a good idea to disconnect the RSL, too.

[sundevil777 102]

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Being dragged by high wind after landing. Pop the RSL before cutting away or you may get dragged again.

See how much force a reserve PC will provide on the next high wind day, it won't deploy a reserve (at least any day that you should be jumping). Disconnecting will keep you from needing a repack though.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am