Scary Jump

[valcore 0]

I had a little concerning jump this weekend. I'll start from the beginning. It was a 5-way jump for a skills camp we all lined up in the door and did a diving exit. I was the last person to reach the group in free fall; unfortunately I think do to being tired (my 5th jump for the day a lot for someone with only 38 jumps) I was unable to slow my fall rate enough to get with the group. Not for lack of trying I was cupping really hard and not going anywhere. So I finally gave up after having no luck. I observed the group from below, maybe 500 to 1000 feet, I could not really tell. Our pre-determined break off point was 4500 AGL so I waited till 4500 to see where the center was so that I could track in the appropriate direction (away from the center). Keep in mind there was a cameraman who was pulling in the middle. I tracked for about 5 seconds so as to make sure there was plenty of distance between us. I waved and pulled and finally came under canopy at 2800 feet. As I am looking at the canopy to check it there goes one of my group in freefall not 20 feet in front of me. I had a very nice view of their wave as they passed me. I later approached them and asked if they saw me. They had no idea they came so close in fact they never even saw me. So I guess I am just trying to figure out what I can do different in the future to help avoid this type of problem? Does anyone have any thoughts or comments that might help out?

The most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I'm from the government and I'm here to help’. ~Ronald Reagan

30,000,000 legal firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

[Feeblemind 1]

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. I observed the group from below, maybe 500 to 1000 feet, I could not really tell. Our pre-determined break off point was 4500 AGL so I waited till 4500 to see where the center was so that I could track in the appropriate direction (away from the center). Keep in mind there was a cameraman who was pulling in the middle. I tracked for about 5 seconds so as to make sure there was plenty of distance between us. I waved and pulled and finally came under canopy at 2800 feet. As I am looking at the canopy to check it there goes one of my group in freefall not 20 feet in front of me. I had a very nice view of their wave as they passed me. ?

Being an anvil myself I have fallen out of more than my share of skydives. There are several schools of thought on leave or stay. Personally if I know I am out of the sky dive I track of perpendicular to the line of flight for all I am worth. I want to make sure I get good seperation from the rest of the group by leaving earlier and tracking further.

Phil

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[bch7773 0]

If you get significantly below the group, i.e. you are pretty sure you can't make it back up and dock before breakoff, then start tracking perpendicular to jumprun.

the ideal thing to do, in my mind anyways, would be to track a little bit away, maybe 100 ft, then turn and watch them, while also looking up and around to make sure someone else didn't go low and do what you did, another group drifting into your area, etc.
and at breakoff time, turn and track again.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I tracked for about 5 seconds so as to make sure there was plenty of distance between us

With 38 jumps, 5 seconds of tracking doesn't equal plenty of distance, as you discovered when the other jumper went right by you. It is hard to get a lot of distance from a standing start in 5 seconds with 3800 jumps. Leave yourself 15 seconds for tracking, more is better.

You turned and tracked when you got to 4,500 feet, which is before the group got to 4,500 ft. When the group got to 4,500 ft and started tracking one of them was tracking through the airspace you just tracked and deployed in. Since you could not ensure someone wouldn't track in the same direction as you, you should have made sure you tracked much farther than anyone else on the jump would have by starting your track early. That way you would still have horizontal seperation (fromt he extra tracking) even if someone tracked in the same direction as you did.

The better you can track, the safer you are. Tracking is a safety skill, use it and improve it on every skydive. If you can't track at a 1:1 ratio or better, keep working on it. Tracking isn't about speed, it is about angle, the least amount of altitude lost for the most moved horizontally is all that matters. Too many people dive and think that because they are going fast, they are tracking well. They aren't.

Derek

[Andy9o8 2]

First off, I echo what Hooknswoop just said.

Second: I’m not trying to be a stuffed shirt about this, but...
I realize this was a skills camp, but, depending on your skill & prior RW experience, 38 jumps seems a bit on the low side to be doing a 6-way (including camera flyer), unless all the other people on the dive were already pretty experienced RW flyers. How many other low-timers were on that jump, too? The fewer jumps you have, the more potential for blind spots in your “sphere of awareness” (and that's in addition to the tracking issues Hook mentions). The more low-number jumpers are on the dive, the more this factor is compounded, thus increasing the chances of inadequate separation, near-misses and collisions.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you can't track at a 1:1 ratio or better, keep working on it. Tracking isn't about speed, it is about angle, the least amount of altitude lost for the most moved horizontally is all that matters. Too many people dive and think that because they are going fast, they are tracking well. They aren't.

Derek - how do you know if you're achieving 1:1? Thanks to a few jumps with John Hamilton and the Gravity folks, I know I'm much better than I was, but how good I don't know how to determine. And what's the difference in best potential with/without booties? Do they just help on acceleration?

On the 6 way, would it have been better for the person to be out at the beginning to form the base, rather than diving down to a slower moving group of 4?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Derek - how do you know if you're achieving 1:1?

Get out last and track 90-degrees to the line of flight. Note where you got out, exit altitude, deployment altitude, and where over the ground you opened. Measure the distance you covered over the ground (GPS works great) and simple division gives you your glide ratio.

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And what's the difference in best potential with/without booties? Do they just help on acceleration?

They really help with accleration and I think they help with ratio too.

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On the 6 way, would it have been better for the person to be out at the beginning to form the base, rather than diving down to a slower moving group of 4?

For dive sucess, yes, for learning, no. So it depends on the goal of the dive.

Derek

[EvilLurker 2]

Personally, if I was low on the group and knew I wasn't going to get back up to them, I'd track away before 4500 feet, make sure I was clear and pull. If you had a PC out at 4500 feet there would be no risk on anyone tracking above you and causing a collision. The person that tracked right towards you and fell within 20 feet without ever seeing you is a concern, you were the one person they should have been watching out for. Scary. 5 seconds of tracking isn't enough to get much seperation, you should go for about 10 if you're breaking at 4500 feet, or break at 5k if you're not comfortable with throwing out at around 3200.

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I had a little concerning jump this weekend.

Yeah, no kidding.

[valcore 0]

nobody in this jump minus the cameraman and coach had more then 100 jumps

The most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I'm from the government and I'm here to help’. ~Ronald Reagan

30,000,000 legal firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

[Frenchy68 0]

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nobody in this jump minus the cameraman and coach had more then 100 jumps

Wow!
What directive were you given should someone go low?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[valcore 0]

I never asked that question so I winged it and was wrong, I am glad nobody got hurt and next time I know to track far away perpendicular to the line of flight

The most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I'm from the government and I'm here to help’. ~Ronald Reagan

30,000,000 legal firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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nobody in this jump minus the cameraman and coach had more then 100 jumps

find a different coach.

[pilotdave 0]

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next time I know to track far away perpendicular to the line of flight

Make SURE you talk to the organizer/coach about that before doing it. Every organizer I've ever jumped with has instructed NOT to track off early. At breakoff time, people will be looking for you and don't want to lose track of where you are. Different organizers definitely have different "rules" for their jumps...be sure to ask.

Dave

[Nick 0]

Problem here could be that you track a little, have an off heading opening which takes you time to sort out, then your under canopy right where the rest off your group are going to be breaking off (not a good image).

On bigger ways I've been taught that if your not in there by X feet (say 6000 if break off is at 5000) start tracking and track to your normal pull height (say 3000).

Nick
Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Problem here could be that you track a little, have an off heading opening which takes you time to sort out, then your under canopy right where the rest off your group are going to be breaking off (not a good image).

Good point, once under canopy, continue to fly away fromthe group.

Derek

[dayle 0]

Well you were right about one thing, having someone 20 feet infront of you in freefall while you are under canopy is a Scary, Scary situation.

However, I must disagree with most of the answers given here. During anykind of big way, if you go low, you stay around the formation and keep trying to get there too break off. You track away at the same time as you usually would.

The reason for this is other's in the formation will be looking for you. If you track away early, nobody knows where you are and it will cause problems for your other jumpers if they are constantly scanning the sky for you.

I think the largest problem on this jump was the low jump numbers for everyone and the lack of tracking ability. Starting to track at 4500 and pulling by 3200 doesn't even give you 5 sec to track. It hardly gives you time to turn around and start your track.

The good thing is you are still here to learn from the experience.

Dayle

[Hooknswoop 19]

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However, I must disagree with most of the answers given here. During anykind of big way, if you go low, you stay around the formation and keep trying to get there too break off. You track away at the same time as you usually would.

The reason for this is other's in the formation will be looking for you. If you track away early, nobody knows where you are and it will cause problems for your other jumpers if they are constantly scanning the sky for you.

I would rather have someone so far away that I don't see them than have them close in where I can see them but have to avoid them. The farther away they are, the smaller the chance of a collision.

Derek

[rehmwa 2]

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The reason for this is other's in the formation will be looking for you. If you track away early, nobody knows where you are and it will cause problems for your other jumpers if they are constantly scanning the sky for you.


I would rather have someone so far away that I don't see them than have them close in where I can see them but have to avoid them. The farther away they are, the smaller the chance of a collision.

I personally agree with Derek, but in this case, I do whatever the organizers tells us to do for this situation. If they tell me to track at X000 ft, then I track like I'm on fire. If they say stick around until first wave, then I stick around and keep trying until first wave and then track like I'm on fire. {{{And I expect EVERYONE to follow the rule the group agreed on/was instructed on}}

In the end, I rather have a rule, know the rule, and trust that others will follow the rule rather than 'not knowing'.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Hooknswoop 19]

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If they say stick around until first wave, then I stick around and keep trying until first wave and then track like I'm on fire.

The problem with this, if you are realyl low on the formation, is that you will start your track lower in altitude than the first wave, have to pull after tracking for less time, which puts you right in the way of the first wave that was able to track for a longer amount of time.

If you don't have a chance of getting back in or are more than 100 feet low, track away. By staying you only increase the potential for a collision. "The organizer said....." makes a poor excuse when some is injured or dead.

Derek

[mdrejhon 8]

My dropzone is making sure I am a GOOD enough bellyflyer before I go into bigger ways. They know I want to visit other dropzones and want to keep a good reptutation for their training. I improved my arch/fallrate problems and I finally did 3-ways and some good sideslides lately, and soon I'll finally be able to comfortably fly around a formation to my own slot. Still a little floppy but better.

I'm impatient, I want to fly bigger ways, but I understand I have to be patient and wait until I'm competent enough to fly my slot.

Personally if I found myself an anvil (NOT!) far enough to be unable to easily see waveoffs, I'll track like mad (to the best of my current tracking abilities anyway), to save my life perpendicular to the jumprun away from the formation, well above breakoff. I now know enough to know that the people above could drift over me, or someone could unwittingly track over me. The blood and pulp thought of a high-speed collision between a canopy and freefaller, makes me wince, so I'm not going to stay around if I can't get closer. If you're too far away, you've already broken the rule "stay with the formation". Scary thought!

Again, don't listen to me at your jump numbers....but talk to your instructors and make the argument that if you're too far away (beyond your control), you're already "not with the formation" and you may as well track away for safety reasons. (And I mean a longer track, not just 5 seconds, if you're still high)

[valcore 0]

Hmm a lot of great tips I will definetly have a better idea of how to handle the situation if this were to happen again. Hopefully not like you said I am glad I am here to learn from it and will make sure the share this with the others that I jumped with sunday.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I'm from the government and I'm here to help’. ~Ronald Reagan

30,000,000 legal firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

[mjosparky 4]

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ou were the one person they should have been watching out for

You don't think they should have been watching out for the other 4 jumpers and the cameraman? Just because you knew where they were at break off does not mean they can not present a hazard.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[EvilLurker 2]

Sure, you have to watch out for the people in your group at breakoff, but I've never had a problem turning and tracking away from them and never had a "near miss" in that situation. I was saying you should really keep an eye on the low person, just in case they have a premature deployment or throw their PC early. That can be a REAL hazard, so if I see someone go low I try and keep one eye on them just in case. Don't you? I'd figure the cameraman was the least danger, he's supposed to pull in place on most jumps (and yes, I've jumped camera a few times and made sure I was throwing out first).
Personally, I don't like someone who's low hanging around directly under me at pull time, I have too many other things to worry about. I'm in the "give up at a reasonable time and track away hard" group. I'd say if you haven't got a grip by 5500, get out from under the formation. Even if you only tracked 200 feet and threw out before the camera flyer, it would be a safe move. I'm sure someone will disagree, but that's what I'd do.

[airtwardo 7]

Personally, I don't like someone who's low hanging around directly under me at pull time, I have too many other things to worry about.

***

First... could we maybe get ya to fill out a bit of your profile so we might get to know your background a little?

One reason that's important...
is you may be speaking from the experience of a small cessna dropzone where your 'advise' though still dangerous, wouldn't be AS hazardous as if you were jumping at a larger...multi-stick, one one pass type dropzone.

**Even if you only tracked 200 feet and threw out before the camera flyer, it would be a safe move.**

I hope you're not serious.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[sd-slider 0]

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**Even if you only tracked 200 feet and threw out before the camera flyer, it would be a safe move.**

I was involved a similar situation this past weekend(nothing like the high-speed pass you mentioned.

On two separate jumps I fell considerably faster than my group members and watched them from below. The plan was for me to break @ 6K if we were separated and track in South, I was the only one going in this direction per the plan.

When I was @ 6K on the first jump I could see the other 2 members of my group 200ft above me with no hope of them catching back up, or me "floating" back, so I tracked as far as I could 5sec or so, verified my space, and rode it out to 4K when I looked above and pulled. Sky was clear from what I could see, but, I still replay both of those jumps and was curious about what was the "proper" thing to to do.

The second jump I noticed that I wasn't going to regroup @ 8K so I tracked even longer. I was disappointed in myself @ the time for not following the plan to break @ 6K and track like a "Mutha".

Looking back, I'm pretty sure I did the right thing given the situation. A lot of good info here, but I'll still keep asking to make sure I protect others and not just myself.

Thoughts?

Anvil Brother #69

Sidelined with a 5mm C5-C6 herniated disk...
Back2Back slammers and 40yr old fat guys don't mix!