Goldilocks and the Three Rings

[MakeItHappen 15]

Goldilocks and the Three Rings

Goldilocks and the Three Rings is a child's story about how to find the right timing sequence of emergency procedures. Not too fast, not too slow, but just right.
This refers to the sequence of cutaway - pull reserve.

One may wonder if it is possible to cutaway and pull reserve 'too fast'.

You only have to look at recent fatalities to say yes there is a possibility that a too quick pull of the reserve can make matters worse. A main temporarily hung up on the container entangles with the deploying reserve. CRW jumpers, photographers and surfboard jumpers have a built in delay between a cutaway and the reserve pull. This is to ensure the main is not hung up on their additional equipment or to clear another canopy from them.

One may wonder if it is possible to cutaway and pull reserve 'too slowly'.

You only have to look at recent fatalities to see that too slow of a reserve pull can kill you too. The ground keeps coming up, no matter how many jumps you have.

One may wonder if there is a 'just right' timing between the cutaway and pulling the reserve.

You only have to look at the malfunction stories to see that there is a 'just right' timing of the cutaway-pull reserve sequence.

The big question or controversy is what is 'just right'.

Some jumpers have a procedure to punch-punch: one hand on each handle. Pull the cutaway, pull the reserve immediately. A friend and I were discussing John Appleton's accident. We both said we never had this punch-punch procedure. Cutaway, make sure you are clear of the main and then pull reserve. Getting stable had nothing to do with the procedure. The delay was to make sure the main was clear. We both acknowledged that many new jumpers do have a punch-punch procedure. Of course, we are both old timers, so maybe that's where the difference lies. One can speculate that maybe John's and the French woman's fatalities might not have been if they took a second or two to clear the entangled main before pulling the reserve.

Some jumpers use an RSL. The RSL will pull the reserve immediately, IF the main separates far enough. An RSL has saved many jumpers, but it also has created worse situations.

The punch-punch or RSL may sometimes, under some circumstances be 'too fast'.

A delay between the cutaway and pull reserve may also be 'too slow' under some circumstances.

The dilemma of what is 'just right' remains.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[rehmwa 2]

This should be a fun thread full of:

depends on .....
what if ____ happens, then ......

my porridge is too hot

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[nate_1979 9]

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my porridge is too hot

hmmm, mines too cold... mabey if we mix the two then we'll have "just right"?

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[dgskydive 0]

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One can speculate that maybe John's and the French woman's fatalities might not have been if they took a second or two to clear the entangled main before pulling the reserve.

Don't know about the french lady, but from all acounts John did try to clear his main. It was the fact that the main lines where wrapped around his main flap that caused it not to clear. Then he did what he had to. His was not a result of pullinghis reserve to fast. He cut away, tried to clear it and then pulled his reserve.

I cold be wrong about his but..... this is what has been found in the investigation and from eye witnesses.

So It think using John is a bad example.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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he main lines where wrapped around his main flap that caused it not to clear

THis is becoming a big problem it seems to me. This is at leat the 2nd time I have heard this as the cause of a fatality this year.

What is the cause? How much slack do you leave when stowing your lines? THere is a reason they give you so many places to put stows on your Dbag. Use them people. I watch packers all the time leave 2 ft. or more of lines unstowed and then they wonder why people have off heading openings or severe line twists. It is just as bad (IMHO) as not having enough. I walked by a packer on Sunday night that only used the two locking stows on the Dbag and then only 4 more on the rest of the bag. I told him that is wrong and could kill someone. He responded " I have to get these things packed up quick!" Lazy f---er!!!! I told him if he can't pack them right then he shouldn't take on so many people (he was packing for an 8 way team doing 20 minute calls.).
All about themoney and no regard for the saftey of the jumpers. I did let the jumpers know what was going on.

Dom

[tr027 0]

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THis is becoming a big problem it seems to me. This is at leat the 2nd time I have heard this as the cause of a fatality this year.
What is the cause? How much slack do you leave when stowing your lines? THere is a reason they give you so many places to put stows on your Dbag. Use them people. I watch packers all the time leave 2 ft. or more of lines unstowed and then they wonder why people have off heading openings or severe line twists. It is just as bad (IMHO) as not having enough. I walked by a packer on Sunday night that only used the two locking stows on the Dbag and then only 4 more on the rest of the bag.

I think it might be because pg 147 of the SIM recommends leaving 24" (2 ft.) of unstowed line. I personally use roughly 12" to 24" of unstowed line. Perhaps that is misleading people?

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[bch7773 0]

well, you do need some slack in the lines otherwise your Dbag won't go into the container. also, if you rotate your bag after you put it in the container, you will need an extra 6" of lines or the bag won't rotate.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Quote

One can speculate that maybe John's and the French woman's fatalities might not have been if they took a second or two to clear the entangled main before pulling the reserve.

Don't know about the french lady, but from all acounts John did try to clear his main. It was the fact that the main lines where wrapped around his main flap that caused it not to clear. Then he did what he had to. His was not a result of pullinghis reserve to fast. He cut away, tried to clear it and then pulled his reserve.

I cold be wrong about his but..... this is what has been found in the investigation and from eye witnesses.

So It think using John is a bad example.

You must have read some entirely different thread than I did. (Besides one of the jumpers on John's load emailed directly)
I rechecked John's thread.
post 19:
"....He cut away at about 1500 feet, but only the right riser released. Quickly there after his reserve was deployed (not sure of the altitude). The reserve pilot shoot entangled w/ the main....."
post 42
"...John's AAD did not deploy his reserve, he did. The main never fully separated it remained attatched at the left riser. The reserve was deployed immediately and I mean immediately as the right main riser separated. The reserve pilotchute never cleared the main, it launched directly into it....''
post 52
"...I can not express how important it is make absolutely sure that you have fully released your main parachute. Clear those cables from the housing. Also emergency procedures must be two seperate actions. This means pull or punch and clear the cutaway handle and cables from the housing. Then do the same thing w/ your reserve handle. This means that these actions can not happen at the same time or too quickly from cutaway to reserve deployment or you are at high risk of an entanglement...
Give adequate time!! What does adequate time mean? Enough time to see the main seperate, then fire the reserve. Body position is of the least importance..."

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[wmw999 2,588]

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the SIM recommends leaving 24" (2 ft.) of unstowed line

There's an interesting thread in Gear and Rigging about how much to leave. Bill Booth said that he's filmed openings, and that as far as he's concerned, the less you leave, the happier he is.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[headoverheels 334]

There was evidence of a line snagging on the main flap, as reported somewhere here on DZ, and I think in Skydiving. Maybe it could have been cleared, maybe not.

[Scrumpot 1]

Hi Jan.

Yes, your references are of course correct. However, if you read even further, to post #98 you will see:

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Basically, 3 weeks after the accident, they took another look at the equipment and found something that was missed on the initial check.

"One or more of his lines wrapped around the left main side flap." Sun Path co-owner Derek Thomas told SKYDIVING last month. There were friction burn marks on the flap.
Also, the "bottom-corner boxing" of the left-hand corner of the main container was ripped open to within an inch or so of the pack tray, Thomas said, indicating considerable force had been applied to the side flap.
Thomas believes the left-hand riser didn't separate from the harness for that reason.

(Emphasis added by me)

This was also as was further reported in July's issue of Skydiving Magazine.

BSBD,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Reginald 0]

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I rechecked John's thread.

Much of the info in that thread was questionable to begin with and some is now known to be wrong. One “eyewitness” spoke a lot on this board but others didn’t… Subsequent investigation and inspection of the gear lead to the conclusion that a line was caught on one of his flaps (and it did substantial damage to it) and this is what is now believed to be the apparent cutaway problem, not the 3 rings failing to release.

I had the unfortunate fate to witness a good man’s death that day and talked to some of the investigators and have read all the reports, etc. I am comfortable saying that his case is not one of pulling the cutaway and then reserve instantly, generating an entanglement. Clearing the main was not an option, as it was simply caught on his gear. He had no choice but to fire his reserve and hope for the best.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[MakeItHappen 15]

The SNM report also says "…malfunctioned main by pulling his cutaway handle at about 1500 feet and deploying his reserve almost immediately…."
This corroborates what the poster said.

Where, in what report, does it say that John struggled first with the hungup main for several seconds and then pulled the reserve?

The point is that John cutaway and pulled reserve as a punch-punch type of procedure. If he had checked to see that the main cleared, there MIGHT have been a possibility of clearing it, maybe not. With a punch-punch procedure you eliminate the possibility of escaping from an entangled main. That is the point of this Goldilocks discussion.

If you do not use an RSL or a punch-punch procedure, you have a several-second window of opportunity to clear an entangled main. If you use the punch-punch procedure and under some RSL conditions you give up that window of opportunity.

This is what jumpers ought to consider.

There are two fatalities, just this year, that are on opposite ends of this spectrum. One person pulls the reserve too quickly and dies. One person waits too long and dies.

Is there a balance point? Or is it a trade-off among several scenarios?

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[tr027 0]

So, then, if you use an RSL you're trying your luck that you won't have an entanglement, correct?

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[Malta_Dog 0]

IMNO (in my newbie's opinion), the RSL is a tad better than punch-punch because it won't activate unless the left riser has disconnected. With a properly maintained gear, the left yellow cutaway cable is a little bit longer than the right one to ensure that the left riser will disconnect last.

UNLESS a main riser or line is snagged, the RSL is the best way to have a fast reserve activation just after the main has cleared (of course, it's still strongly advised to pull silver in case of RSL failure). RSL isn't perfect and can lead to more trouble in some circumstances but gives me the better odds to have a clean reserve above my head fast. So I'll continue to use one for a looong time. I'll also continue to train for my original emergency procedure: look re...duh....yellow on my rig - grab yellow both hands - look silver - pull yellow and clear cables - grab silver both hands - pull silver and clear cable - arch!

OTOH from now I'll make 1 extra stow and leave less free lines than what the Icon manual says (~ 60 cms). I prefer to deal with line twists under my big and generally docile canopy than having to dump the reserve into a nylon mess overhead with all fingers and toes crossed.

All your dropzone are belong to us!!!!111!