Landing Patterns

[MakeItHappen 15]

Landing Patterns

If I used the terms 'landmark pattern' and 'approach angle pattern' would you understand the difference between the patterns?

IOW, do the names convey the technique without a formal definition?
Should I give a formal definition?

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DiveMaker

[quade 4]

I think that if people have been around for awhile they can probably figure out what you're talking about, but there is probably no way in hell that a newbie can without some form of definition.

The FAA, for example, has a pretty well defined "standard" pattern and pretty well defined portions of that standard pattern so that pilots and air traffic controllers can speak to each other with less abiguity.

I think if more skydivers adopted that usage things might be more clearly understood.

Check out;
AC90-66A = the full document.

Please see attached for the diagram (which is a much faster download).

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tombuch 0]

I understand it, but I doubt a novice will. If you are going to prepare teaching material for the topic I suggest you include diagrams and descriptions.
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Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[NWFlyer 2]

As a relative newbie, I'd have to say I have a vague idea what you're talking about, but would probably have trouble putting the concept into words. Tom and Quade are right ... you'd probably need to give a more formal definition if you wanted people to understand the differences.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[kelpdiver 2]

landmark pattern seems clear, though it's foolish to assume that what I or anyone else thinks is clear is the same as what you think.

I'm far less sure I know what you mean by the second one.

Always define. We don't have consistent terms for terms involve canopy turns with lower loss of altitude either.

[bob.dino 1]

I worked it out, but only because both terms are side by side, which allows me to compare and contrast.

If, however, I encountered 'landmark pattern' in a document without explanation, it would take me quite a while to figure out what you were on about.

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Should I give a formal definition?

This is a vote for 'yes'.

[Zenister 0]

for training materials you should include a full glossary of any terms specific to the activity that might differ from those in 'normal' usage..

i think its silly to assume ANY student would have any idea about the differences in pattern types and so each should be specifically spelled out with illustrations to get the best results..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Thanks for the replies.

I am going to rename the 'Approach Angle Pattern' to 'Angle to Target Pattern'.

Landmark Pattern (draft definition):
General -
Fly over such-n-such landmark at pattern entry of x many feet.
Fly downwind until over such-n-such landmark at such-n-such altitude.
Turn 90 degrees to Base
Fly the base leg until over such-n-such landmark at such-n-such altitude.
Turn 90 degrees into the wind.
Fly towards the target and flare before landing.

Specific -
(This is for a student scenario, low WL and low winds)
Fly over the church at pattern entry of 1000 feet.
Fly downwind until over the alligator farm at 600 feet.
Turn 90 degrees to Base
Fly the base leg until over the hanger at 300 feet.
Turn 90 degrees into the wind.
Fly towards the target and flare before landing.

Angle to Target Pattern (draft definition):
General -
Enter the downwind leg.
Turn onto the base leg when the angle to the target is such-n-such.
(You'll have to look to one side and slightly behind you.)
Fly the base leg until the angle to the target is such-n-such.
Turn onto final and flare for landing.

Specific -
(This is for a student scenario, low WL and low winds)
Enter the downwind leg.
Turn onto the base leg when the angle to the target is 45 degrees, behind you and off to the side.
(You'll have to look to one side and slightly behind you.)
Fly the base leg until the angle to the target is off to your side (aka abeam of the target) and at a 45 degree angle.
Turn onto final and flare for landing.

These are only draft definitions and have not been cleaned up to account for 'corrections' that may have to be done to the pattern.

I am going somewhere with this, but I want to be able to make sure I can clearly convey the difference between these two types of patterns.

Thanks for more comments.

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DiveMaker

[outlawphx 1]

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Fly downwind until over the alligator farm at 600 feet.

Umm, there's no way in hell I'm jumping at that DZ

I think the definitions look good though.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Al-righty.
Let's get to some discussion.

One of the things I have observed is that a large number of people with many jumps fly a landmark pattern. Another thing I have observed is that people that use an angle to target pattern include classic accuracy jumpers, swoopers and us regular folk with lots of jumps.

The landmark pattern is harder to transfer to a new situation, say an off field landing, high winds, congested traffic pattern, etc.

The angle to target pattern is easily transferable and adjustable for winds, density altitude, traffic, off site landing or WL. The angle to target pattern also requires, among other things, an understanding of projected landing point, approach angle and how these change with conditions.

The ISP teaches the landmark pattern. This is fine and a great technique for someone's first few jumps.

The ISP also states "Visually transfer the intended landing pattern to the new landing area." for off site landings. If a jumper was using a landmark pattern, this task may be monumental. You have to find landmarks that are spaced appropriately and have the correct orientation to the wind line.

This task (transfer your pattern to a new location) is easy if you use an angle to target pattern.

I think that part of the CC problems are because people are using a landmark pattern and not an angle to target pattern. I also think that students should be converted to an angle to target pattern by the time they get their A license.

What do you think?

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Make It Happen
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DiveMaker

[MakeItHappen 15]

Bump

Can't believe that all those CC folks with lots of opinions haven't commented on this....?????

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DiveMaker

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think that part of the CC problems are because people are using a landmark pattern and not an angle to target pattern. I also think that students should be converted to an angle to target pattern by the time they get their A license.

Can students (or anyone really) actually judge that they're 60 degrees from the water tower so it's time to change to the base leg? And doesn't that get adjusted by current wind conditions anyway?

(Proper or not, what drove me crazy about the 45 degree exit separation is I could never really judge where 45 degrees was. I never thought exiting jumpers got past 60. Do people just know where on the ground is 2.5 miles back and look at it?)

Or are they just applying their experience to 'know' where it's time to turn? If it's more the latter, the students won't have the air time to be able to do it. Landmarks are much easier, though I know I've often placed myself a bit further ahead than I really am.

Personally, I think I'm only using landmarks at the first DZ I used, where I did AFF and was given such markers. The challenge has been about judging the legs with constantly changing winds, and with the traffic around. Also, places with larger LZs lead to a decision to take the out vector away from people, and that kills the accuracy practice wrt the pattern.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Can students (or anyone really) actually judge that they're 60 degrees from the water tower so it's time to change to the base leg?

The angle to target pattern is not angle to landmark. It's angle to target.
You look at the place you want to land and determine what angle it is from you.
Based on what that angle is, you determine when to turn.

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And doesn't that get adjusted by current wind conditions anyway?

The angle changes with various factors: wind, DA, WL, traffic etc.
You'll have a steeper angle in higher winds, as compared to no winds.
If you fly the same landmark pattern in higher winds, you will always land short.
If you fly the same landmark pattern at a higher WL you will always land long.

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(Proper or not, what drove me crazy about the 45 degree exit separation is I could never really judge where 45 degrees was. I never thought exiting jumpers got past 60. Do people just know where on the ground is 2.5 miles back and look at it?)

The silly 45 degree exit rule has nothing to do with this discussion.

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Or are they just applying their experience to 'know' where it's time to turn? If it's more the latter, the students won't have the air time to be able to do it. Landmarks are much easier, though I know I've often placed myself a bit further ahead than I really am.

I completely agree with you here. At first, use the landmark pattern. As jumpers do this repeatedly they can observe the angle to target. Then you have them use the angle to target method exclusively. That will be transferable to a new DZ, changing winds, changing WLs, traffic etc.

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Personally, I think I'm only using landmarks at the first DZ I used, where I did AFF and was given such markers. The challenge has been about judging the legs with constantly changing winds, and with the traffic around. Also, places with larger LZs lead to a decision to take the out vector away from people, and that kills the accuracy practice wrt the pattern.

This is precisely the point. At medium winds the angle to target at each turn point is such-n-such an angle. At no winds it is such-n-such angle. At high winds it is such-n-such angle. That technique is transferable to a new DZ or an off site landing. You don't need to know where the church, alligator farm or hanger is.

With traffic, the angle to target pattern will allow you to change the length of legs so that you can still land where you want to. For example, you may make the base leg longer and the final leg shorter to avoid other canopies.


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DiveMaker

[kallend 2,147]

When I got my ASEL pilot's license many years ago the instructor went out of his way to discourage the use of landmarks. We landed at dozens of different airports, which was really effective at preventing the use of any landmark except the touchdown zone itself. I thought (and continue to think) that was a good idea.

Later when I got my glider license the instructor used landmarks, which made me quite uneasy since gliders are far more likely to make off airport landings than powered aircraft.

My skydiving instructors did not suggest the use of landmarks.

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